Design Meets Business

Tom: Looking for a job is super, can
be super isolating, and especially if

we're going through, difficult economic
times and people are losing their jobs.

I like to think, I think community
is a really big part of beating

that isolation, beating those
negative thoughts in your mind.

Christian: The discipline of design
is now key to building great products.

More and more companies are making
space for it at the higher levels.

More people than ever
want to become designers.

And most of us who already do the
job wants to find ways to have just a

little bit more impact in our teams.

Welcome to design meets business.

I'm Christian Vasile and on this
podcast, I bring you world class

product and design leaders who found
ways to shape products, companies,

and entire industries, and who are now
sharing what they know with you and me.

My hope is that we all get to learn
from the experiences, ideas, and stories

shared on this podcast and in the process.

become better designers.

Today's episode is slightly different.

We're changing topics a little bit
from design and product leadership,

and we're getting more tactical about
recruitment and hiring with Tom Scott.

Tom is one of the most
recognizable recruiters out there.

And in this chat, we talk about how
to improve and benefit from your

network, about player coach designers,
advice about portfolio design, and

his thoughts about design education.

I hope you enjoy this one.

Tom, welcome to design this business.

I'm happy we get to
chat today on the show.

In three seasons of design business,
you're the first person I've brought on

with a heavy background in recruitment.

And while loads of design managers can
give advice around hiring and getting

jobs and portfolios and all of that good
stuff, very few of them have the amount of

experience of recruitment that you have.

So if someone hasn't heard
about you and you have to give

them a brief introduction.

How did you get to where you are today?

Tom: Yes.

Thank you for the invite.

And it's great to be here.

Yeah, I'm Tom Scott.

I been in design recruitment now for
just under 10 years, I want to say.

So I got into recruitment in
a way that many recruiters do,

they just fall in to recruitment.

No, no one grows up and goes,
I want to be a recruiter.

I, My background was in finance
recruitment for maybe two months.

I thought I needed a job.

so I said, do this recruitment thing.

And the owner of that company also
owned a design recruitment business.

And that's where I started to.

Falling in love with design recruitment.

And so from day one, I started
to meet, design leaders and

really figure out their world.

And I was more immersed in
the design and just happened

to be in recruitment as well.

From there I've worked
at a couple of agencies.

And then four and a half years ago, I
set up my own design recruitment business

called Fearless, which then moved
more into being a design consultant.

So we.

ended up being one of the
largest suppliers of BP

London Stock Exchange, Toyota.

And then we also did hiring for
many different companies as well,

including Miro, Klarna, Wise
Fantasy, which is a very well known

design studio in the, in the US.

I sold that business in April this year
started a new business called Verified

in July, And the focus there is an invite
only talent network with the focus being

lead I Cs and above into chief design
officers, board level roles and CEOs.

mY belief in recruitment is a community
focused approach always has been.

So this invite only talent
network is really critical

to what we're trying to do.

Christian: Let's talk a bit more about
that, this community focused, this

community approach, which if you ask
me is very different than how a lot

of other recruiters do their job.

They just contact you when they need you.

And then, that's how it works, right?

So talk a bit more about community.

What is your belief there?

Why?

And how are you putting that in practice?

Tom: Ultimately, I think, so how are
we putting in practice on verified is.

Essentially looking at it
from two angles, right?

the candidate perspective we have
an invite only talent network.

So we're always looking to pull designers
in that we think are a good fit.

We then interview them like they're
joining a company, but they're

actually joining our network.

Within that network, it will
have access to other people.

So figure out peer to peer
learning, networking exclusive

events, exclusive access to jobs.

And then from the client side, what
we have from the candidates that we

interview, we have a very detailed
report on each candidate, so we

can accurately determine if they're
a good fit or not, rather than.

You know, You're working for say Miro and
you just put someone over from Figma and

say, Oh, there'll be a good fit because
they've worked at a design tool, which

many recruitment practices that occurs,
but we can more focus on three things.

Like the design skills, product
development, because I think that's

super key and then also their team
approach, if they're more of a leader

culture and all that kind of good stuff.

Christian: How do you interview them?

We said there's an interview
process for them to join.

Is it you personally?

Do you have some community
leads that do it?

So who interviews them and
what would you expect if you

wanted to join the community?

What sort of questions would you expect
or what would the discussion be around?

Tom: So I've interviewed,
I interviewed them.

My team interviews them.

We're a small team right now because
obviously we just, we started in July.

We have, 20, 30 minutes.

It's more of like, I wouldn't
say it's a formal interview.

It's more.

Getting to understand their work
and understand exactly what they're

looking for looking at any LinkedIn
references or anything like this,

where we can figure out, are they
going to be a good fit or not?

We really want people who are super
proactive, super determined to be the

best they can be in their career,
because ultimately they will be the best.

Candidates for our clients, because our
clients are paying us to find, the top

1 percent of designers, which, by the
way, the top 1 percent of designers,

we can talk about that later, but that
causes a bit of a stir on linkedin.

Christian: Why is that?

Tom: Because people think it's elitist
and all this kind of stuff, but

ultimately our clients, any client,
any company that pays a recruitment.

company to find talent.

They want the top percentage
of designers possible for them.

Otherwise , what's the point ? They
can just put a LinkedIn post

out and get people to apply.

Christian: Why is this community
approach the right approach to

recruitment from your perspective?

It's very different than how
everyone else does it, right?

So this is something new.

Why is this the right approach for you?

Tom: The normal the way that
the recruitment industry works

is the recruiters work for the
companies, they get paid by them.

So ultimately, candidates and people
are, yes, they are your product

as such, but there's many of them.

Whereas my philosophy is,
nurture people, we help people.

Is it comes around?

And I always also think that community
approach, you can scale the support

and the advice a little bit more.

Because if I took out 30 to 60 minutes
every day to speak to the designer to

look at their portfolio to give them
advice on the job search, I wouldn't

have any time left to actually do
work and make money and make a living.

I've always wanted to give back.

I love helping people.

I love giving advice, but the community
is a great way of, of hitting

more people basically with that.

And I also think looking for a job can
be super isolating and especially if

we're going through, difficult economic
times and people are losing their jobs.

I think community is a really big part
of beating that isolation, beating

those negative thoughts in your mind.

So.

The community aspect is not necessarily
for me to make more money in the business.

It's more my personal approach to life.

We're human beings.

We like to have human interaction.

I feel like with this digital
world, we've lost that anyway.

So I'm trying to foster that again.

Christian: There's another thing that
I'm thinking about off the back of this.

Obviously, community is important,
not only at work, as you said, in your

personal life as well, there are a lot of
jobs out there that never get published.

First thing you do when you want to
open a role is you ask your team, do

you know anyone who would fit this?

And that job opening might
not even go out there.

So I think having a strong community
and being part of a network of people

is something that we could be fostering
a bit more, which is why I think your

approach is interesting because you
have this community where people get

to know each other, not only on a
work level, but also on a personal

level, they perhaps become friends.

And one thing leads to another.

So there's a job opening and I recommend
you or you recommend me and that way you

just get to explore and use this network
that you have a bit more for work as well.

Tom: It's not, it's not what
you know, it's who you know.

ANd also with the exclusive jobs,
I think often as well, if it's

like a mid senior lead role.

companies don't put it out because
they get unqualified candidates.

And then that whole like, they
just want to give a white glove

service to five to 10 candidates.

Christian: Since you've been in
recruitment for so long, you probably

have seen the way companies recruit
designers change a couple of times

over the last almost 10 years.

What were some of those changes
and where are we at this point in

time when it comes to recruitment?

Tom: That's a great question.

I would say when I got into the
industry, it was pretty standard,

three to four stage process.

There was always a design task,
because I think design anyway.

Product does digital product
design is a relatively new field

in the grand scheme of life.

UX as a term has only been around for
15 years, but it's been around, but, so

companies didn't really understand what
it was, but they know they needed it.

So they were like, they couldn't
get that validation by looking at.

a portfolio.

So design task was becoming
more and more prominent.

Then I would say probably about
three to four years ago, the whole

industry was kicking off around
design tasks and that's not right.

And as those designers that were doing
the design tasks and didn't like it

got into head of roles and hiring
roles, they sort of removed them.

So I don't really see a lot
of design tasks anymore.

Very rare.

I would say between 2020 and 2022,
there was like an influx of roles.

People were hiring within two stages.

One week, and then 2023, there's
less roles, obviously more supply.

So companies are taking, in my
opinion, a lot longer to hire designers

and sort of want loads of choice.

And, I, my personal belief, it
shouldn't take any longer than

three weeks to hire a designer.

end to end.

But now it's like some roles
have been open for months.

If you can't hire a mid weight
product designer within three

months, you're doing something wrong.

Christian: Three months sounds like a lot.

Yeah.

And it's not because it's not three
months because it's 20 stages.

It's still three, four stages.

Is it because to someone out there
who goes through a process right

now and has a lot of waiting time,
let's give them a little bit of

light to explain why are companies
right now taking so long to hire?

Tom: Why I think they're taking
a while is Sometimes they don't

know what they actually want.

So they interview a range of
different levels, a range of

maybe different skill sets.

Then they filter through, then
they go, okay, we want this.

Then they can change their mind.

And so sometimes it could be like
they're changing their mind a

lot of what they actually want.

some companies like to ensure that all
the candidates, say they're interviewing

five candidates, are going through
the stages at the same time, so they

can make the decision at the end.

So that can be more the delays in between
the stages, not necessarily the stages

can be the budget's not signed off, but
they're interviewing it can be they're

not sure on if they need a permanent
bus there's loads of different factors.

Christian: So sometimes it's
good to know that it has

nothing to do with you and yeah,

Tom: yeah often.

It's not often.

It's the internal sides around the role.

Christian: A Few years ago, when it
was a lot of demand, but not a lot of

supply, if you were able to hire fast, you
were able to hire while others, because

they were too slow, they were too slow.

Is that still an advantage today to
hire fast or not as much as before?

Tom: I would say yes,
because have a higher pool of

candidates straight away anyway.

Also, it depends on.

Where you are within projects, where
you are within what you're building.

So yeah, I would say there is
definitely a, still an advantage.

Hire quickly if you can.

And often these, the companies that
hire quickly know what they want.

They have budget signed off.

All the stakeholders are aligned.

That's, that is a company
that's got their shit together.

And that for me is a green
flag for anyone that sees that.

I'm like, cause I generally believe
the interview process, then the

onboarding process tells you a lot
about the way that company operates.

Christian: Yeah, I agree.

The interview process oftentimes gives
you signs around how design, not only

how design is seen, but as you said, how
does the company have it all together?

When you join, if the interview process
was long, if the role wasn't signed off,

there are a lot of bureaucracy in the way
in the interview process, then that's also

what you can expect after you get hired.

If you get hired, you
can expect exactly that.

Now you're just going to be on the
inside, but you can expect exactly that.

Let's talk portfolios, get
a bit more tactical here.

Obviously a portfolio is
something that is not static.

It's not the same throughout your
whole career, not only because

the work changes, but because the
requirement of the portfolio at

your specific level change as well.

So if we go straight from the beginning,
someone who is just at the beginning

of their career, maybe a year, two
years of experience, what would you

expect from their portfolio in order
to put that in front of a company?

Tom: So I think for early stage
designers, your first design

project really is your portfolio.

So that should be your
first UX design project.

I think keeping it for, this
is for early stage designers.

So keeping it super simple, have a
decent landing page that tells you

a little bit about who you are, why
design, where you study, what makes you

stand out, what's different have two
to three case studies and there's loads

of advice out there, but I would say If
it's a design project, obviously walk

through the whole end to end process.

Often talk more about what you
did, not what the team did.

you have to like own your, your work.

And what you did, what
mistakes did you make?

What impact did you have on
the team, the product team?

And then at the end, what was the ROI?

Is there any tangible ROI from your input?

Often as a early stage designer
you probably aren't going to

get that much data to be honest.

But you can maybe feed into the product
team you're on or something like that.

And then have like links to your your
socials and all that kind of stuff.

Any content any volunteer
work that you're doing or yes.

Christian: I think an important
aspect of a designer in early stage

is that I've noticed a few times is.

And you've mentioned it too but
perhaps they're not able to is

the ROI of your design, right?

If you're able as a junior designer to
talk about the impact you've had, I think

that's very, it's a very powerful signal
to give to someone who's recruiting that

so early on in your career, you understand
the value that you can bring to the table.

Now I just want to caveat that for a
second, because if you don't work in a

purely growth design role where metrics
are the bread and butter of what you

do or what you are working based off.

That's going to be very hard to do.

So when we say ROI of design,
it doesn't necessarily have to

be conversion rate increase.

It doesn't necessarily have to be hard
metrics, but even saying something

like we've redesigned the navigation
of our application and through

usability testing we managed to show
that people could navigate faster.

Something like that.

It just truly doesn't have
to be hard data all the time.

Tom: There's in the industry about
increasing your business literacy.

So even if you, even at that stage,
even if you're starting to just think

about design business, design business,
design business, that'll put you in good

step for your career and discussions
with more senior people who are looking

at design through a business angle.

Christian: And I'd say if people hire
for junior roles, their expectations

are also set for that junior role.

They're not going to expect from
someone early stage to have doubled

conversion rates and do all of this.

But they do expect, as you say,
just a little, perhaps you don't

expect it, but it's something that
can surprise you positively, just

a little bit of business literacy.

If you have that early on in your career,
you are really set up for success.

I agree.

So that's early stage.

How does that change when it comes
to someone a bit more senior?

Tom: I think the portfolio becomes
less important I believe it's

often it's who, you know, in this,
like in the recruitment world.

And I think you can get intros.

You can get interviews
without having a portfolio.

Like many of my clients don't
expect to see a portfolio from a say

staff IC to a Chief Design officer.

But if we're looking at a senior
and lead from a portfolio, I would

say not just about the portfolio.

It's about companies you've worked for.

The impact you've had, on your
resume, LinkedIn profile, whatever.

But from a portfolio perspective,
I'm expecting to see again,

three to four case studies.

I'm expecting to see um, strong
business literacy in your communication.

I'm expecting to see an end to
end process, I'm expecting to see

really high end visual design.

If you're a visual designer, I'm expecting
to see what the ROI was of your work.

And in that ROI, I'm expecting to see
actual tangible effects on the business,

because I think as you get more and more
senior in design, you'll see your impact

is actually on a business level, rather
than just a navigation on a product.

To be honest with portfolios I.

Agree that we need them, but I don't
think they're be all and end all I

think Often like I said, it's who
you know and sometimes if you get

interviews, I like sometimes refer to
see that raw figma files or referrals,

there's a lot more around it because
I also believe that not many hiring

managers read a portfolio end to end.

So with the portfolios, I think
as well, in any level, it's

about a high level of your work.

And then the interview is
where you go into more detail.

We don't need like the script of like.

everything you did in that
project, I just think that the

key tangibles and then communicate
that well, and then go into detail.

It's like dangling the carrot, right?

Christian: So I think there are
two interesting things here.

We can perhaps pull on
each of these threads.

The first one is, you mentioned this
earlier as well, is who you know, right?

So we're going to talk a little bit
later about working on your network

and how to take advantage of that.

But for now is the second thing
you said, which is something that I

believe and I have seen the majority
of designers make a mistake on,

which is they come to an interview.

And they present you the portfolio that
you already have seen as a recruitment

or as a hiring manager, someone who's
hiring instead of saying the job of the

portfolio is to get me the interview, the
job on the interview is to get me the job.

Therefore, I think in the interview, I
need to present something else rather

than something you've already seen.

You've already read the study case.

What else can I give you in the
presentation, in the interview?

How else can I talk about this work?

And if anything, just the fact that
you're not walking me through your

portfolio live with five people on
the call, I think even that sets you

apart a little bit, in my opinion.

Tom: That's a, I actually love that.

Christian: I what I've personally
had success with, but I've learned

from others who, while I was
interviewing, they've done it.

And I thought, Oh, this
is just so brilliant.

They come in with exactly the same piece
of work that was in their portfolio.

Because I kind of expect once you've
shown that to me in portfolio, I expect

you to show that to me in an interview
so that I can ask a few more questions.

But it was a proper presentation
put together with a nice narrative.

And at no point did they bring up that
study case they, they've, they've created

different artifacts for the interview
and they walk you through that and they

allow you for time to ask questions
and it's more of a conversation is

here's what I've done and any questions
about this, how can I shed some more

light on this part of the process?

Yeah, that's something that
I encourage people to do.

Tom: I love that a lot.

And then with just touch on briefly
with the head of exec level.

It's less of a portfolio.

It's more of a presentation that you
represent to a, an exec on what you've

done in terms of building a design
culture how you raise the bar of the

business through design uh, handle
impacts on the bottom line, customer

experience, and then bring metrics to
that, how you build the team, how you

hire retention rates, cost savings.

It's more a presentation of you, and
then you can show your team's work.

Christian: So if I can play back and
summarize a little bit, what we've just

discussed, if you're early on in your
career, you use your portfolio to display

and to signal that you've done the work,
that you know what the work is all about,

that you do know the process, that you
were able to deliver some sort of impact,

even if it's not necessarily measurable.

But some sort of impact through your
work, the more senior you get, the

more, I mean, you said the portfolio
perhaps doesn't matter so much in terms

of what you're presenting through it.

But again if you get the chance to
come to an interview, you got to talk

about the ROI of your work, you got
to talk about the process, what have

you done, how you solved conflicts,
perhaps have you managed stakeholders,

senior stakeholders, all of that.

Bring the whole package to
an interview and be able to

signal on all of these things.

And as an executive or someone a bit
higher up, what's important is to

talk about your impact on the team,
how you've put the team together,

why people like working for you
and in your teams and all of that.

So more of what you've done for
the design team rather than.

in the design team.

Is that accurate?

Tom: Yeah.

Yeah.

As well as for the leaders, how
designers infused the business and

product strategies and what that peer
relationships like across the exec team.

Christian: You talked about network
earlier and who, you know, not

what, you know, and I'd really like
to dive a bit deeper into that.

Other than joining a community,
for example, yours, right?

What else could someone do to improve
their network in design, especially in

a world where some of us are working
remotely, you're not sitting shoulder

to shoulder with your colleagues in
an office, much harder to, go for

a drink after whatever people do.

What can you do there to stay in touch
with your network and the continuously

building it over your career?

Tom: I think it's a great great question.

I would say definitely find what
works for you for the pandemic.

I think everyone would have said,
go to a design conference and,

you get some names to put onto
LinkedIn and connect and whatever.

But what I believe is
LinkedIn social media.

It's the world we're
in now for networking.

I think we've got to utilize
it the best of our abilities.

I don't necessarily think it's,
posting content every day.

A lot of people don't like doing
that, but I think it's a combination

of digital networking and physical.

So for example, if you make a post and it
hits 20, people, that's a lot more than

just one person at a physical conference.

Some tangible things that you
can do is set yourself targets.

So for example, five people a
day that you're going to connect

on LinkedIn and just say, Hey.

Nice to connect.

We love to stay in touch and then just
foster that relationship over time.

I think posting once or twice a week
about your journey in design, about

what you're learning, about what you
think companies are doing well, what

we could be improving, will then garner
this attention to your profile and

people will start connecting with you.

People will start commenting But
then also you'll get the attention

of potential hiring managers and
people in the industry . And then also

combining that with on conferences
as well, to solidify relationships.

It's always good.

I think the whole connotation of you
got to build your personal brand.

People just see it as posting
10 times a week on LinkedIn.

I don't, I see it as having an
online portfolio ready to go.

Your LinkedIn is really nice and clean.

It's very clear what you do connecting
with the right people as well.

So for example if your end goal
networking is to get a job, you need

to be connecting with lead, principal.

Designers who are going to go into a
head of design role in the next one, two,

three years, you need to be connecting
with hiring managers, but also three to

five great design recruiters as well.

And then just foster those relationships,
make a note of who you've connected with

when and why like what did they say?

And then you can make a conscious effort
to Comment on their stuff as well.

I think commenting on LinkedIn, not just
writing posts, has been shown to boost

your algorithm in LinkedIn or whatever.

I think there's some content
that came out about that.

But yeah, building your personal
brand does not have to mean

be like a content machine.

I just think it's.

everything you do every conversation,
how you come across, how you approach

people, how your LinkedIn looks,
making sure you're connecting

with coworkers and old coworkers.

Christian: I think
that's on the brand side.

You're creating your own brand.

I think there's an
extra dimension to that.

which has always been very hard for
me because I am a raging introvert

and I do not feel comfortable
at conferences and all that.

But what I've done recently is I have
found smaller groups of designers or

product people since moving to Portugal
and through a simple site like Meetup,

you get to go to a small intimate
conversation with designers about AI and

the impact of AI, whatever it may be.

And I think That's something you can do
because there is value in meeting someone

face to face even in a digital world I
think there's just something different

about meeting someone face to face and
That's one of the little techniques that

I've done is just find smaller, intimate
events like that put yourself a little

bit out of your comfort zone is not great.

But after you do it a couple of times,
two, three times, it starts to become

a bit more normal and you think,
Oh, I actually quite enjoyed it.

That's, That's what I have found is
someone who is just very comfortable

at home for 23 hours a day.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

Christian: And another thing is.

If you do prefer more one on one
interactions, I think another thing you

can do is to go to a site like ADP list
and look for a mentor and perhaps not even

a mentor that can mentor you on something
specific, but perhaps even someone at

your level or slightly higher up with
whom you can foster some relationship and

say, Hey, I'm just looking to expand my
networking design, have some interesting

conversations around this and this topic.

Would you be keen on catching up over
a virtual coffee every once in a while?

That's another thing that could
also be interesting to do.

Tom: Yeah, ADPlist is great for that.

I definitely agree with
the smaller meetups.

I went to Web Summit and that was like
overwhelming, crazy, man, 70, 000 people.

I was like, nah, screw this.

But I always find the best connections I
make are at like round tables and dinners.

so Yeah, I, I agree with that.

Christian: another thing that I, you
just said the round tables and dinners,

I think another idea that just popped
into my head, how can you perhaps take a

little bit control of this is if you're
comfortable, why don't you hold something?

I'm not talking about you, Tom, but
you, whoever is listening to that.

if you find no events around.

I'm sure there are other designers around,
perhaps you're coming from a smaller city.

You put something together on
meetup or on Facebook, whatever,

say design round table in Newcastle,
just off the top of my head, right?

A smaller city.

You can and what I found, this is
actually, I found something in my

personal life, especially when you
move to a new city, it's much easier

to just build your own group and be
the person that holds these events.

Whether you use Facebook groups or
something like that to create these events

and then you become the core of the group
rather than hoping and expecting and

praying that you get invited in other
groups so you can take a little bit

control of building your network as well.

You don't always need to wait
for others to do that for you.

And I think what you've said
earlier is easily summarized in one

sentence, which is make sure that
other people are aware you exist.

There's that saying if a tree falls
in the forest Does it make a sound?

It's the same if you're a designer
that nobody knows about Are you

gonna be easy to find in it by a
recruiter or by hiring manager?

Probably not versus having even some
small some small brand out there You've

post a couple of times a month you
comment you interact with people Your

name comes up time and time again,
it's gonna be much easier to think

of you when there's a role coming up.

Tom: Yeah, I think saying, I think,
remember they're saying now, it's

not what you know, it's not who
you know, it's who knows you.

Christian: I Love that.

I think that's much better.

Yeah, I love that . You
wrote a post some time ago.

about this idea of a player coach
designer . And it's something

that I've heard from more people
recently, of this shift in design.

Something that I would really
like to hear your opinion on.

Why do you think this is
becoming more of a thing?

And so first of all, what is it?

And then why do you think
it's becoming more of a thing?

Tom: I've got like a football analogy I'm
going to try and use about this as well.

But so I think I'm
seeing it a lot in 2023.

And I think it's because companies are
trying to get more for their money.

Because obviously
budgets are a little bit.

Smaller and they need someone
to lead a small team, but they

also need someone to do the work.

And at startups and scale ups up to
a certain employee number I agree.

I think you, you need to just
be, do everything in startups.

Like you can't just have a surely
people manager to manage two people.

But I think when it gets to a certain
size, player coaches can actually be.

Detrimental in a way they can burn
out, but also they're not giving

everything to one to ones to people
development to unblocking, challenges

for the design team that managers do.

And I think it shows a sign of
design maturity if you have people

managers, because they see the
value in and in having them and

they do unblock a lot of problems.

They do foster culture and within
the team, they provide sort of

psychological safety to be that middle
person between execs and designers.

So yeah I've seen it a lot.

I think this year people managers have
been less in demand, so they've had to go

into being hands on, hands off mixture.

So yeah, and I think it's
good for some people to take

on the extra responsibility.

I do fear that people burn out very
quickly by becoming player coaches

if it's in the wrong context.

Christian: The reason I think a player
coach is interesting is because it is very

hard to have a role in which you only do
management or in which you only do design.

I don't think it's ever as
black and white or as binary.

I think there's always a little
bit of an overlap there If you're

successful as an individual contributor
for a lot of years, at some point in

time, the question will be asked of
you as to whether you're interested

in moving into management or not.

And at that point, you might not know.

And I think some sort of a hybrid
approach of a player coach would still

allow you to do the work that you're so
passionate about, but also to allow you

to dip your toes into management and
see, is that something I'm interested in?

So it's very much a hybrid role that I see
more and more happen perhaps because of

the times you said, budgets are tighter.

There's not necessarily space
for people at every single level.

So then you might have hybrids.

But I think player coaches are becoming
more of the norm in the industry today.

Are you seeing the same in what the
companies are trying to hire for?

Tom: They are.

Yes.

And I think people want managers and
leaders that can inspire by doing as well.

And so when needed, they
can get on the tools.

Yes.

But it's like the first
question I ask, right.

When, when a company reached out and
goes, we need a player coach type person.

It's like, how do you define hands on?

Do you define hands on with like pushing
pixels in Figma or is it more strategy?

Is it more on the product development
side, research strategy, rather

than visual design pixel pushing.

Cause I think that's very,
they're very different.

And I think if you want someone
that can do everything and manage.

That's going to be very difficult, but
I think you need to define what this

hands on means to each company and for
how long and what that split is as well,

because it could be like 80 percent.

People management, 20 percent
hands on, I do think people want

to be led by people that if needed,
they can kick your ass and figma.

they can inspire by doing as
well, but don't always have to

because they've got the team.

I think in larger organizations,
they're really important because

there's a lot more bureaucracy.

There's a lot more politics and
they are often that middle person

between a VP chief design officer
and the team and the execs , and so

the designers can focus on design.

Startups don't have that bureaucracy,
don't have that hierarchy.

I also think there's a lot of
great companies out there that

design management is like a career.

So if you, this is probably more away
from digital product design, but if

you look at companies like Philips,
if you look at companies like Procter

Gamble, they bring people out of
university to be design managers.

I was speaking to a very well
known chief design officer who

went into P& G as a design manager.

Wasn't a designer, he
was a design manager.

there's different types
of managers as such.

There's like purely management
operations around the design practice.

Then there's these like coaches
doing the work, leading, pulling up.

Christian: I think it's, it would
be interesting to see how that

would work out because as you said
earlier, I fully agree with this.

It's awesome when you're managed by
someone who you know that at any point

in time can go into Figma and perhaps not
kick your ass anymore, but certainly hold

his own weight he's on her or her own
weight together with you or help you jam

or help you unblock yourself when you are.

Looking at a design for five days
and you can't see anything else.

And then a person comes and
says have you considered this?

Have you considered that?

Someone with taste, someone
who's done the work.

I think it's hard to get inspired
by someone who hasn't done the work

Tom: Yeah.

A question to you, being
a design, senior designer.

Would you want to be managed by
someone that's not a designer

Christian: probably not.

Yeah.

I think that's even when you were talking
about Philips and Procter Gamble in

that example, I was thinking I would
try to put myself into the shoes of

a designer being led by that person.

And part of the problem of being
managed by someone who hasn't done

the work is that they don't understand
the intricacies of your day to day.

Someone who's been a designer even if
they've evolved to a different level,

still understand the complexities
of your job on a daily basis.

While someone who comes from a
completely different background might not

understand why focus time is important.

Might not understand why cleaning
up your Figma files every once

in a while is an important thing
for your productivity, might not

understand some of these details.

So I also, I'm not saying that
there wouldn't be a benefit of that,

but I think it would be a struggle
from the perspective of, do you

understand what I do on a daily basis?

And also part of the job of a manager is
to help you grow and lead you to growth.

And how can you help me grow when you.

When we just have different career paths,
so I don't know perhaps I maybe I'm not

being open minded enough about this.

I don't know, but I just can't
imagine it at this point in time,

Tom: I think it depends
on the organization.

It depends if you've got design
leaders that report into you

that can there's, there's a lot
of, that's a whole nother thing.

Yeah, but yeah, no, it's player coaches
and very interesting on the road.

Christian: Yeah.

And I think it's becoming more of a thing.

At least I'm seeing it become more
of a thing with some of my friends

who are on the verge of management
and then they're not entirely sure.

So then they are being given a
player coach role for a couple

of years to figure it out.

So I know you also have some thoughts
about design education and I have a

lot of thoughts about design education.

So I think let's converge over that.

As far as I know, you believe that you can
become a designer in three months, right?

Am I correct?

No way,

Tom: I've had the design education is
for me, it's God, it's evolved a lot.

And I think as design has become
this thing where you can make good

money, a lot of companies know that.

So they're bringing designers into
the industry, paying grand fees,

all this kind of jazz, lots of
universities are adding design courses.

Yeah, it's becoming a thing.

We need more designers, don't
get me wrong, but yeah, I've

got a lot of thoughts on this.

Christian: Let's go in there.

What do you think design
education could be doing better?

Tom: Slowing down in terms of
boot camps producing designers,

quote unquote designers within
three months is ludicrous to me.

You can go to university for a
couple of years and learn it at

such more of an in depth way.

I know not as many people
can go to university and have

that time, money, whatever.

But I think bringing people in
the industry after three months,

there's many problems with that.

And I think the biggest one is designer's
expectations after three months.

So for example a lot of people go to
these boot camps who have been senior in,

I don't know, publishing or, and some,
I remember a few that were like a nanny.

And they've literally done this
bootcamp and they're like, I want

50k to go into a mid level role.

I was like, no, it doesn't
quite work like that.

Because also my frustration with bootcamps
is you will learn the process in one way.

We both know companies
don't operate like that.

You can't go into any company
and go, this is the process,

this is how we're going to do it.

Because it's, it can evolve.

That can be.

they might need a product out in one week.

They might need a product
out in six months.

How are you going to adapt your process?

I think that adaptability, I think
the, um, designers, UX people

are not learning information
architecture in the way they used to.

And you do at university.

And I think that's a huge problem.

I think the death of IA is like
within UX has become really.

Quite sad to see, and I think, it's sort
of being overlooked because people, just

a bit of a sidetrack, but the visual
design leaders are leading UX teams.

And so who don't truly understand
IA, which is, it's fine, but

yeah, that's how we're seeing it.

also design.

can change and save lives.

So if you think about it from like a
med tech or cockpit on an aeroplane,

if you design something wrong, a
medical device could kill someone.

And yes, we're not, yeah, designers are
not doctors, not astronaut, whatever.

But I think we need to respect the
practice a lot more than we are

and that sort of business-fication
of design is, this is a problem.

This is a real problem as to
why it's becoming like that.

Someone said to me, I made this post
and people think, thought I was like

being elitist or this kind of stuff,
but I don't necessarily mind people who

come into industry after three months.

If they're like interns or
super humble about their level.

It's more about the expectations post
bootcamp and also the expectations

that bootcamp is setting on the
designers that are paying 10 and

grand for three month course.

So yeah, there's many
factors that I disagree with.

I also think we should,
we're constantly learning.

And then in terms of design
education as well, where I also see

a quite interesting gap is when you
get to like smid to staff level.

there's almost nothing out there
for them to upskill as well, which

should always be upskilling, but
that's maybe a different topic.

It's an interesting conversation.

Christian: I saw, must have been
a couple of months ago now, a...

post that went viral on the internet.

I think it was on Instagram.

And there was this girl who studied
marketing in the U S and um, she

came out of school after three
years or whatevera Bachelor's lasts.

And she was shocked that nobody was
taking her seriously in a job interview.

And she, she was having a little bit
of a moment where she, at some point

she says, I don't understand why,
because they all want the experience.

And hey, my education is the experience.

And that is after three years
of studying marketing, right?

And after if three years of
studying marketing, it's not

considered experience, right?

Then certainly after three months
of doing a design course, you can

also not think that's experience.

When it comes to the curriculum, I don't
necessarily have a problem with that.

I think the issue that I have is the
expectations that they're setting

that after three months, you are
going to be able to get a job.

And then we have these networks
and we can put you in touch with

people and then they're selling
it as if it's a guaranteed.

And I think if people go in there
thinking, Hey, in these three months,

just going to learn the basic.

And the fundamentals and that's it.

But then it's a continuous
learning process.

If that's their approach, I
think that's completely fine.

There's, I think, nothing wrong with that.

Tom: Yeah, and then also the other,
on the other side, on the company

side, I don't think a lot of companies
are set up to bring in someone.

Yeah.

Christian: I think that's a great point.

Yeah.

Tom: And so for example, if you
look at this last three years,

pandemic, crazy economic times.

So a lot of companies are adapting.

A lot of companies are downsizing.

A lot of companies are having to
get squeezed more out of designers,

which basically means that they
need people who can execute now

on mission critical projects often

.
And so early stage designers don't.

Then we take into account remote working.

When I was at early stage in my
career, I got the most benefit out of

sitting next to someone more senior
than me, the conversations that

you don't necessarily hear online.

And yeah, I don't think a lot of
companies have set up the higher

early stage designers, to be honest.

Christian: I wrote a post a few years
ago, I titled it purposefully in a

specific way to, to get attention, but
I said, don't hire junior designers.

The point of that was not, it was
not not to hire junior designers.

If you actually read the article,
it was about don't hire them unless

you have a support system in place.

So it's literally the thing you're saying.

Is if you're hiring a junior
designer without that support

system, without the plan for growth,
it's going to be very difficult to

get anything out of that person.

And that person will also have a
terrible time because that person

will struggle that without the support
system, it'll feel like you're just

trying to swim and you're suddenly
in the middle of a triathlon.

So if you do have the support
system, which I agree, not a lot

of companies do, then you can hire.

But yeah it's a tougher
one for people early on.

Tom: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Christian: Another thing that you
mentioned there that I'd like to

touch upon is that in these bootcamps,
you only learn the ideal process.

And I think there's nothing more than
maybe there are bigger red flags,

but it's quite a red flag for me when
someone presents a piece of work and

everything goes according to plan and
everything goes according to the process.

I always ask questions because in
15 years of designing, I don't think

I've had one larger project that went
just fully according to the plan.

And if you don't learn how to deal with
that and how to handle that in school,

then how can you expect to be able to
be dropped in the middle of a company

and just have impact straight away?

Tom: You can't like It's like people say,
we follow the double diamond process.

It's I'm telling you, chief technical
officer, chief information officer

does not care about the double diamond.

So talk to them about the double diamond.

They won't care.

if they say we need to get this
out within four weeks, but you're

saying no, but we need four weeks for
research or I'm going to freak out.

It's the ideal process.

It's you're no good to
them . You're no good.

So you need to learn how to adapt
quickly by using different tools

in your arsenal, which can only
be, can only be built through time.

Christian: All right, Tom, we're
nearing the end of the show.

Let's bring this one home.

I have two more questions for you.

I ask everyone at the end of
the show, these two questions.

The first one is, what is one action
that you think led to your success

that in one way or another, perhaps
separated you from some of your peers?

Tom: In 2017, I committed to my
director at the time, I said, I'm

going to just create content and
listen to the industry and create

around that and build a network.

And that was a different way
at that time in recruitment.

Now, a lot of recruiters are
posting content, but I was doing

it back in 2015 or something.

I think then from now, I've never
really looked back and, my, my

approach is very much community
and content first in that sense.

Christian: Did that idea come
from somewhere or did you

just have a shower thought?

I

Tom: I was on LinkedIn back in
2015 when all the UI was clunky.

It's still, but it was like really
clunky and all this kind of stuff.

I was looking at doing like all
the recruiters were just posting,

I've got this job with this sort
of company, this sort of price.

No one's really talking to designers
about design and about the inside of

like how to actually hire designers.

And I just think what I like to do
is I like to just give information

to people that will be useful in
their search and their career.

And that's my role is recruiting.

I'm the middle person between
the company and the people.

So show what happens here.

Christian: I like that because.

The role of a recruiter is not necessarily
to just post the jobs that you have

available, is to put two and two
together, to put the right profile of a

designer with the right company together.

And perhaps you're part of the
reason why that's happening because

you've been doing it for so long
and you've been successful with it.

A lot of people are starting to follow is
that education component is as a designer.

You might not exactly know what's
going on behind the scenes.

You might need a bit of help
knowing how to do this or how to do

that in your recruitment process.

And I think someone like you and other
recruiters who are sharing some of

these processes is just as useful as
knowing how to design your portfolio.

So I think a lot of people
are thankful for that.

Tom: And I think the other thing just
really quickly is what makes me is

I've run a design consultancy and
actually executed design work led

and executed and sold design work.

So I understand how
design operates inside.

And so I have a better
understanding of what will make

the right designer for my clients.

'cause I know what they're doing.

Christian: The other one is,
what are we not talking about?

enough when it comes to design.

Tom: Oh, man

.
I don't believe as a design
industry, we're talking enough

to people that aren't designers.

I believe we talk very
much between ourselves.

But if you think about how we
build products and services, it's

not just designers that do it
to get it out to the customers.

It's engineering, it's marketing, it's
business operations, it's product.

We also need to be talking to them We're
very insular as a design community.

So I believe we need to be broadening our
horizons and getting content like this.

And what you do out there to more people
that aren't designers for them to get a

bit more of an understanding of design,
because I believe there's the whole thing

in the industry at the moment around.

Designers need to learn
business, blah, blah, blah.

Great, yes.

Companies need to understand design and
learn design and build design literacy.

They can only do that with designers
talking to them about design.

Christian: That's a great one.

Thank you, Tom.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

Where can people read more about you,
find you, read the stuff you're writing?

Where should they go?

Tom: So I have a, I obviously my
LinkedIn, which I'm sure you'll put

onto the show notes have a bi weekly
newsletter and podcast as well called

the Verified Insider, talking to design
leaders business leaders, and just

exploring the world of digital design
and business and a bit more broadly.

But LinkedIn is probably
where you can catch them.

Christian: We'll put all of this
in the show notes as always.

Thank you very much for taking
the time today I appreciate you.

If you've listened this far, thank you.

I appreciate you and I hope you've
learned something that makes you just

a little bit better than yesterday.

You can check out the show notes on
designmeetsbusiness.co if this has

taught you anything, please consider
leaving a review and sharing the episode

with someone else who could learn from
it and I'll catch you in the next one.