Design Meets Business

Christian: JB it's a pleasure to
have you on Design Meets Business.

Welcome.

I've tried to bring you
on the show last season.

In the end, it didn't work out, so I'm
very happy we're finally able to chat.

You bring over two decades of design
experience, more than 10 years of

that at Intuit in leadership roles.

And now you're at Red Pin.

Uh, to bring everyone up to speed
who hasn't heard about you, could you

please share a bit about your journey?

How did you get here?

J.B.:

Sure.

well, I've always drawn and been creative.

I guess I could have been
called the weird kid.

Way back when.

but to me, design and creativity,
and I would lean more towards that.

I'm a creative than a designer,
but like akin to breathing.

And so I just have to do it and I'm lucky
to make, a living doing what I have to

do, obviously went to uni for design.

a lot of that was hand work because
that was the nineties and computers

were just still on the come up, right?

but unfortunately, um, fortunately
now, I got into architecture first.

So I was not an architect, but I
worked in what's known as way finding.

So if you're ever in a hospital,
there's signage and, graphics.

If you're ever at a, you know, a large
hotel, you see those, you know, arrows on

the wall and somebody designs those and.

I was lucky enough to work for an amazing
architecture firm called HKS, but I

was always interested in technology.

always had, a computer next to me.

my dad was in it, and so when the iPhone
came out, I knew I had to make a switch,

and so I switched from architecture to
a technology agency working with large

brands like Coca-Cola and Chick-fil-A.

And then from there, and these
are like large American brands.

Some of the audience might not know
Chick-fil-A, but it's delicious.

And then I moved into Intuit where I
spent 10 years, designing for accountants,

so professional accountants, but also
working on the QuickBooks product for s.

I moved to the UK six years ago
because of that opportunity,

leadership opportunity here.

I led the French team and the UK team,
and then ultimately moved to a global

position leading accountants, and Intuit.

about six months ago I moved to Red
Pin, which is a company where we wanna

connect, global citizens to real estate.

And so we're building a super secure,
super safe, super fast payment,

platform that allows people to do that.

so that's kind of like the
short version of my career.

I have many interests.

I think, uh, before this I told you
I'm interested in interesting things

and everything's interesting, and
so I do a lot of stuff on the side

and, write a tremendous amount.

But, creativity is the core and
it's what drives me every day.

Christian: I just wanted to say to confirm
that yes, Chick-fil-A is delicious.

I don't think there's
any doubt about that.

I love the fact that you're writing a lot.

It's one of the ways I found out about
you the first time and years ago.

and you're not only writing about work.

You have a small section or a big
section on your website where you

also write about life in general.

And I want to say some of your
writing reminds me of, um,

Seth Godin, the way he writes.

Very short, very punchy.

some of them are 20 seconds, 30
seconds, and then you get the main

idea and then you can take that
idea and do whatever you want with

it, interpret it in your own way.

So I love that.

I, I also, like you said, you
worked in wayfinding before and my

first instinct was to say this is
quite similar to working in design.

Because what a lot of what we
do is help people find their

way around the specific product.

So a bit of a similarity there, isn't it?

J.B.:

Yeah, absolutely.

100% it would.

It's actually been.

The thing that made it happen is I
was able to tell the story of how in a

physical environment, one person, like,
you know, in a hospital or hospitality

or even like an office environment,
somebody has to get from that front

desk to their waiting room or their
meeting room, or their doctor's office

or whatever, or their hotel room, right?

Whatever it might be.

uh, there was a particular
gentleman named James Helms who

has been such a impact on my life.

He hired me twice, right?

he took that, he took that leap
that, you know, a young professional

no real, like, you know, I was
designing websites and stuff on the

side, but not really native apps.

he saw the potential of those two things
and the intersection of those two things.

it really changed my life and I'm
forever grateful for him to do that.

And to see that opportunity,

Christian: That's a very familiar thought.

I think I remember at least one person.

they say only hired me once,

J.B.:

Yeah.

Christian: years ago, but, gave me
that first chance that just allows

you to sort of start in that career.

And then from then on
you're kind of on your own.

oftentimes I think back, if that
person wouldn't have given me the

chance, would I be where I am today?

Um, and, and I think you can think
of a lot of these moments, not just

for work, but, but in general, you
said you're interested in everything

and everything is interesting.

What are a couple of the things
that you're interested in lately?

what's on your plate outside of work?

J.B.:

yeah.

I'll, so, well just AI in general, I
think it's a leveler in some ways and

scary in other ways, so I'm sure we will
talk about that here in a little bit.

I cook, So that interests me.

not bake 'cause that's too scientific for
me, but cooking I've been reading a lot.

I think reading and writing are two of the
most important things that a human can do.

It's, I would say that, this is a hot
take that you're not engaging with

the human experience unless you read
other people's experiences or you

understand other people's points of view.

Like if you're just, consuming,
things that reinforce your

particular bias, I think that's gonna
really create a little challenge.

So I've been actively, especially
with the geopolitical situation in the

world, actively trying to understand
different people's point of views.

And so, you know, like anything
that's kind of more globally,

oriented I engage with.

it's one of the reasons I moved to Redin,
like as a global citizen, as someone that.

grew up in the United States, spent a
majority of their life in the United

States, and then moved to the uk.

there's just a lot you don't know.

Christian: Hmm.

J.B.:

can, you can that you understand, but
until you live it, you just don't.

You know, like I have a
completely different experience

as a human understanding.

immigration, things that I
never really thought about

Christian: Yeah.

J.B.:

living in the United States 'cause it was
not a thing for me to be concerned with.

But the rest of the world, this
is just like a normal thing.

Like you're moving from country
to country and the United States

is kind of, sequestered away a
little bit with two big oceans.

I would say is, those are the
things that are really interesting

me, is, understanding, the global
zeitgeist and what's shifting

and changing and potentially.

responsibility I have to
ensure people are safe.

And then third thing would be, language
has always interested me writing.

I read a lot of poetry.

I think it's one of the
purest art forms that we have.

and I would love for, you
know, my personal mission is

to make technology poetic.

And what that means is it reflects
back the people that I'm serving.

these are the things that I really,
I live a cr, a creative life.

It's purposefully creative.

And these are the things I'm mostly
worried about right now, I guess.

some heady topics, some

Christian: Some heavy topics.

J.B.:

yeah.

Christian: I also thought how the first
two, you've mentioned AI and sort of

global situation, and I think those
are also a little bit intertwined.

There's, there's a lot of, um, so it's
not just the geopolitical situation of the

world right now, but just AI in general.

Is going to impact the world in
economic cultural in many other ways.

So since you brought it
up, let's chat about it.

not necessarily at a global context,
but what does that mean in design?

what's the impact?

And obviously we're not
gonna know right now.

I often use this, analogy of the iPhone.

When the first iPhone came out, it
was revolutionary in its own way, but

I think we, if we would have asked
anyone, where is it gonna be in 20

years, nobody really would have said,
it's gonna have these massive cameras on

it and it's gonna have lidar scanners.

There was no, there was, I
don't think that was thought

of, you know, in the same way.

So it's very difficult for
us to know where it's going.

So I'm not trying to put you
on the spot, but what are your

thoughts about the impact that
you think AI will have, on design?

J.B.:

Yeah.

great question.

in design, there's some real tactical
things that are going to happen, and then

long term, there's just a lot of fog, like
you said, where we don't know, but you can

extra, but excuse me, you can extrapolate
based on previous, technology adoption.

So the iPhone as an example, everybody
thinks the iPhone was like out the gate.

Just everybody had one, actually took
four years to get true, like quarterly.

Like, wow, this is a thing, right?

I think it was the four, 4G was the one
that really started the, hockey stick.

I think they sold less than a million
the first year and now they're selling

of millions a quarter, like, you know.

So that's the first thing.

We're in the adoption phase and
there's a lot of hype around.

AI is technology.

so we don't know, like you
said, but we can test and we can

understand the use cases, right?

So when a new technology comes out,
you're really trying to problem to solve.

And that's what we're doing now.

And what, what does problem to solve mean?

It means that we didn't
start from a problem state.

We're actually solving from a
technology state, here's this

technology, it does this thing.

What's it good for?

Versus here's this problem,
what technology will solve it?

So we're probably the solve and
there's opportunity in that.

It's like, well, I guess
I can go and experiment.

And so that's the first thing is that
we're gonna do a lot of experiments.

There's gonna be a lot of cool
tools that come up and then die.

every day I'm bombarded with like
LinkedIn things of like new prototyping,

this, that, whatever, and, and whatnot.

So the first thing a
team should be doing is.

Understanding the workflows.

Like my team at Redin, I haven't mandated
go do things with ai, but the expectation

is definitely there that we start looking
at how it's gonna affect our workflow.

you know, things that are gonna
go away in the short stock photos,

obviously you're gonna need stock
photography, , but now you don't.

You can just prompt the thing that
you need, get a kind of like guidance.

And this will be the second thing
is that you'll get 80% there.

Like it's there, but there's a
uncanny value between the output.

All outputs, I would say, have
uncanny value that humans start

being like, that doesn't feel right.

Like, you can get a written response
chat, GPT, Claude, whatever it

might be, and there's a gap.

The same thing happened with imagery.

You're just like, there's
something off here.

It doesn't look quite right.

that 20%.

20% is where designers are gonna make a
really big impact because you're gonna

get the good 80 percent's good enough,

You're gonna say, that's good enough.

A lot of people are gonna ship that
80%, but the audience will know.

why will the audience know?

Because I believe, that people
can feel care in the work.

And this is where designers
will really come in.

So we have to experiment about
what 80% is allowable and shifting

even responsibility sometimes.

And in that last 20%, which
makes something great.

And I'll get to a point here that I've
written about that greatness a lot of

people aren't gonna be willing to do.

They're not gonna put in the time
to make something that's good.

Great, because we're just
so used to good enough.

We're just so used to it, right?

And so gonna be this weird thing
that begins to happen where AI's

gonna lift all boats for design.

things that weren't well designed in
the past or good enough in the past are

now all of a sudden gonna hit a mark.

Like it could be, websites, it
could be apps that really didn't

have really good UX and stuff.

They're gonna get better, they're
gonna get good, but the real

differentiation will be the great.

And so the gap between bad and
good shrinks, but the gap between

good and great gets bigger.

And we've seen this throughout,
design history, right?

Like as tools have been
democratized, start seeing more

and more production of something.

You're like, oh, there's that thing.

Oh, it looks really good.

But then when you start inspecting it,
you're like, eh, it's missing this.

It didn't really, the campaign
really fell apart in the mid

funnel and, and things like that,
because they didn't go to great.

They just did good.

And then you see something
like pentagram does, and you're

like, well, damn, that's great.

so there's that gap there.

And so I think as designers, have
to be aware of that gap, that taste

and everything will begin to shift
people will understand the challenges

of, or will see the, the good.

That gap between Great will always
be there and people will have that

uncanny value and be like, eh,
it doesn't feel like it was a, a

carefully considered, solution.

So, yeah, like, so we have to, we have
to experiment just like everyone else is,

and we have to look at these tools as not
taking our jobs, but supplementing it.

Like Photoshop one, know, the burn
tool in Photoshop is because somebody

used to burn photographs, right?

this is just a different
way of creating imagery.

And we, we always have this fight
when, things were being democratized

with a Photoshop illustrator, you
know, Canva came out, everybody

freaking out about Canva.

It's just another, it's just another
thing of technology the way we work,

but the outputs are very similar
to what we've done in the past.

Um, and one other anecdote, When bicycles
were first invented, you can go back

and look at the newspaper articles about
bicycles and how scared everybody was that

people are gonna go from town to town.

we have to put our fear in the real
things that AI could potentially create

rather than us na gazing at ourselves
and being like, what's gonna happen?

let's take control, let's start
understanding these tools and using

them and defining our future rather
than having it defined for us.

So if we're a solve, let's figure out
what problems it solves for us and

move very quickly into the future.

Rather than waiting for, product manager
X from Figma telling us how to use the

thing, we can actually start determining
that as a, as a, uh, a discipline and

a function within an organization.

Christian: Loads of
threads to pull on there.

I think.

J.B.:

Sorry about that.

Christian: no, all good, all good.

J.B.:

Yeah.

Christian: me a lot to work with here.

one of the things that you've, mentioned
was Canva and I think all designers

when Canva appeared, or when it became a
bit more popular, maybe not necessarily

product designers, but certainly

J.B.:

Mm-hmm.

Christian: designers, marketing
designers, were a bit afraid of it.

And it is true that what has happened,
it's enough to go on social media now and

see that most accounts don't really need
a designer to have good enough posts.

'cause they start from templates.

It's relatively simple,
but, um, you're right.

As soon as you start looking into it.

You realize, okay,
spacing's not right here,

J.B.:

Mm-hmm.

Christian: doesn't really match
what you're trying to say here.

Now the imagery hasn't been applied.

You maybe you needed less
opacity here and there.

So there are small details.

My question to you is, do you think
those small details are noticed

by us because it's our daily job?

And does it matter to most people
tho, do those details matter or is

good enough good enough for most
people, in that specific use case.

And I'm thinking, how does
that translate for us?

There are plenty of designers who
work with early stage companies

that just have an idea and their job
oftentimes, or their projects are to

create a very early MVP that founders
can go and raise some money with.

And I'm wondering whether that's
gonna be a use case or it's gonna

be as straightforward as saying,
here are some wire frames that

I've done on paper as a founder.

Design them.

And then with that, I can then go
and raise money and maybe afterwards

hire people to do the actual job.

Right?

But that first MVP can perhaps
be created with AI going forward.

That means that some designers will have
to rethink their role into all of this

will have to perhaps move to later in
the flow and help founders later on.

So there will be an impact, I think in
the sense that, when all you need is

just good enough, that's going to be
relatively straightforward to get with ai.

And when you do need really
great or better than good enough,

that's when you hire someone

. J.B.:

Yep.

Um, the, the first one about
the does the audience care?

I think the audience cares, long term, I'm
gonna take this to the extreme, but it's

kind of like the broken window theory,
So if a has a broken window, it's more

likely to get another broken window.

Because, ultimately, it doesn't
look like it's cared for, And so

over time, the building dilapidated.

so I think people are just used to not
having great design in their lives.

And that's why now don't, don't
get me wrong, like we're definitely

moving to a world where it's better
and better, I think that's one of the

reasons we don't have a lot of magical
experiences with technology like we did.

for the last 20 years, look at the, things
that have happened, we went from almost

overnight, not overnight, but almost
overnight, like physical keyboards to

complete everything's touchscreen now.

you can voice control half your stuff.

these are actual magical things.

I think we've slowed down.

I think AI can help us
that, think people feel it.

I think they know when
somebody's cared about something.

I think that's why people are still
attracted to, art and poetry and

things because there's a certain
soul to the product itself.

and I do believe that digital
products can have soul.

It's just a lot more difficult to put in.

and that this segues to
the MVP product thing.,

there's a time and place where you
go super deep on detail, right?

and there's a bet right now in Silicon
Valley about who will be the first

one person, billion dollar company,
They build a product, they're maybe a

really high agency developer founder
with a design eye, and they've built

something in their room and they
understand the technical constraints.

And AI is helping them accelerate that.

And, and we're seeing things
like this with lovable and

whatnot, that it potentially
could be available in the future.

But right now it's really difficult.

You still.

Thousands of people to
help you do the scale.

just a point where your
limitations, uh, show up.

And so yeah, there's gonna be founders
that use AI to build things, but that's

no different than, a technical founder
building their own work and selling it.

It's no different than a, um, a founder
right now outsourcing to contract

work design, getting that design
done, going to go get the money,

becoming a billionaire, and that, that
designer never seeing a penny of that.

Right.

And so my question to the design
thing is that when do we become

less of a service provider and we
actually start control of our fate?

Again, going back to the earlier thing,
why are there a lack of design founders?

I think that's the big question.

Why is it that when we talk
about ai, we talk about.

Like these business people, MBAs,
who are taught design now, in their

classes, like meaning like design
thinking and problem solving skills

that designers inherently have.

Why aren't we talking about how AI will
supercharge a new generation of design

founders to build products that matter?

and I think fact that it doesn't come
up often shows the cultural constraints

of design as a service provider and
that we have some type of generational

trauma around, actually taking control
of our own fate as a discipline.

'cause if you look back like Charles
and Ray Eames, Massimo Visione, all

these individuals created, their
business, And what we now have thousands

of, and this is gonna be a hot take.

We have thousands of designers.

Hundreds of thousands of designers working
for big tech moving buttons around and

they're doing a lot of work behind the
scenes that is never seen by people.

the relationship between a PM
and the developer, a lot of times

the designer is actually the
mitigator between those things.

And they're stuck in this service
provider model, getting paid less

than the developers paid, less than
PMs, but providing, a certain craft

that actually makes the product work.

And so I don't think the questions
that we should be asking ourselves

as designers is where do we
sit in the funnel for founders?

But the fundamental question is,
why are we sitting on the sidelines

rather than being engaged with this
new technology to define its future?

And, I don't have a lot of answers to
this because, you know, somebody could

look at me and be like, well, you're
working for a, know, private equity

uh, you know, zero to one situation.

And I could be like, yeah,
that's absolutely right.

And it's one of the reasons I chose to
go there was because I wanted a different

experience than what I had in big tech.

that's my main concern with ai.

Christian: Well, I think what
you're saying there, what you were

saying earlier was, we're in the
adoption phase now and we still

don't know what this can do for us.

And now you're saying here's
what we can do for us.

So, so perhaps that is how you bridge the
gap, of designers, more designers being

founders, and I'm not even thinking of.

Founding big companies.

I do think there's a use case
straight away that we can do today.

It's not necessarily
about starting a company.

It's as simple as in the past, designers
who didn't necessarily have very high

motion design skills or animation skills.

They were great product designers,
but didn't have that and wanted

to somehow delve into that world
needed a bit of help because it's

just motion is a different job

on its own these days.

you can design it, you can
imagine it and think, here's how

I think it could move around.

And you can use AI as a thought partner
and you can use AI to spec out animation

specs that you just give to an engineer.

While no more than two years ago, if
I wanted a sort of a transition on a

screen, I would have ha I would have a.

Gun on a call with a,
developer and explain.

So I want this to move here and
I want that to move there, and

I want this to be faster than
the other one, but not too fast.

But now you can plug that in, into,
into ai and even if you don't know

the terminology, you can kind of
explain to AI what you want and it'll

pass, it'll give you back specs ready
for development that a developer can

take and make your reality happen.

So it's even small things like
that that I'm quite interested in

because I do think that most people,
even though they might have the

technology, will not become founders.

And I, I don't know if
everyone has an, an idea.

I don't know if everyone wants their, that
type of life of, of starting a business.

But I do know that everyone wants
to get better at, at their job.

I do know that everyone has small gaps in
their skillset that I think AI can fill.

day we had a, I had a situation where
a product manager designed with AI.

sort of a very early MVP and it was
way better than explaining it in a

notion document, which would have
been the case five, six years ago,

or perhaps even less than that.

So I do think that the gap is
closing between product, between

design, between engineering.

Now, with something like Figma make,
you can build, very early prototype.

You don't need a Figma prototype.

If you want to do a usability testing,
you just build it with Figma make or

any of these other tools, and then
you actually test the clickable real

working prototype that's not wired
to any backend, but it just works.

So I do think well before, unless you
knew how to code, which is a technically

complex things to learn, there was this
door that you couldn't pass through

as a designer or as a product manager

. J.B.:

Mm-hmm.

Christian: I think that barrier
or that door is slightly a jar

and it allows us to, to, yeah.

J.B.:

So like, I think there's three level
or maybe two levels to talk about.

The one I've been really focused on is the
philosophical or the higher level view.

And that is, I encourage designers
to take control of their career.

Versus it being imposed upon them.

And right now, we need to be
more vocal about the things

that we need as designers, both,
internally to the companies that

we have or that we work for, and
externally as a, discipline, right?

As a workforce that will be
affected by this technology.

So that's the top level.

I am all about agency.

Like I don't hire low agency people.

Like, it just doesn't happen because
everybody needs to be towards a common

goal, but controlling how that common
goal comes to life for themselves, right?

Then we have the tactics,
and you're absolutely right.

a PM right now can go to cursor.

Like I use Cursor a
lot, I use Claude a lot.

Those are my preferred tools.

Figma Make is coming along.

as soon as they plug in.

Design systems, and we'll get to
design systems here in a second.

It's gonna be lights
out for a lot of people.

it's gonna speed up the development
process even faster, right?

as soon as we figure out that
systems part, other things are

gonna shift very rapidly for design.

there's tactics but it's no
different than somebody sketching

on a whiteboard 10 years ago, like
we'd always sitting in a whiteboard.

It's just a different output now.

It's a higher fidelity output.

The question that I have about all
these prototypes being made, and

they're good and I make them myself,
I have full native apps that I've

created to do specific jobs for myself.

My website was built via cursor high
graph, super base versal, you know, very

quickly save me 300 US dollars a month on.

Squarespace fees, right?

You know, like I didn't
have, different Squarespace.

I didn't have to worry about
their systems and how I make

it my own, things like that.

people are building some cool stuff and
lovable, But again, you use the term

I think thought partner maybe earlier.

I think this is crucial.

just yesterday Harvard released a,
released a, a study and there's this

phenomenon happening called Work
Swap, where people are giving outputs.

It looks good enough, it looks polished.

are decks, prototypes, documents.

And the reality is, is that there's
not really a lot of deep thought.

the productivity gains
of AI are not yet seen.

it's 'cause we're in the adoption phase.

I think there will be productivity gains
over time once we understand the things.

95% of companies have not seen
productivity gains from the

billions and billions of dollars
that they're investing in this.

why is that?

Well, that's what they went out to answer.

And the answer is work swap.

are time starved.

They're giving AI tasks expect
AI to give them the answer.

But AI is not an answer.

Machine AI is a thought
partner to your point.

so that prototype, the questions that
I would have about that prototype,

what's gonna make a better prototype?

Thoughtful PRDs are just pumping
in, I need a thing to do a thing.

And so the question there
is, did the PM do their job?

I don't know by the way,
I don't know this person.

the prototype looked probably awesome, but
did they really think about the problem?

And they might, might have and, and
I don't know that person, right?

So I wanna be clear, I do have a lot of
questions when somebody comes to me and

it, and I can tell it's generated by ai.

Because the depth of thought, the
consideration of situations to be done.

Now, if they come to me with
a prototype and said, here are

the things I've thought about.

What, what are your
thoughts on these things?

And they have strong principles,
strong values, strong things

that they've built a thing on.

I'm a little bit more like, okay,
let's engage in a collaborative

conversation around that.

it's really challenging right
now to know what thought what

the AI has outputted, because

Christian: Yeah.

J.B.:

different things, and, we have to be
really careful about these things,

Christian: one of the things that I'm
hearing and would be nice to expand

upon is this idea that although we
have different tools now and these

tools might be way smarter than the
previous tools that we have had,

J.B.:

Mm-hmm.

Christian: thing that is not gonna change.

That is that you still need to
think about you still, it's input,

you know, crappy crap out, right?

yes.

Now you can ask questions, you can
use these tools to do things for you,

but you still need to do the thinking,
which you could probably argue was even

before the hardest part of the job.

The hardest part of a designer job
is not necessarily making sure the

button is placed in the right spot.

We have a design system for
that, or it's, you know, move

it a few pixels here or there.

It's a lot of the thinking beforehand
that you need to do that decides, or

sort of the input that decides how
good the output is, and what you're

saying is that that's not gonna change.

It's just the tools are changing.

J.B.:

Yeah, there's a lot changing
and that's why the workflow is

so important, and that's why
experimentation is so important.

So, an example I can give
you is, let's say you move

directly into Figma Make Right?

And I've used it lightly, or whatnot.

Um.

you using it to get an answer
or are you using it to sketch?

when you sketch a thing on a piece
of paper, sketching and making is

thinking, and you've completely off
put the thinking to the machine.

And so when you're making something,
whether it's pottery, a ux, uh, ui, or

your writing, whatever it might be, act
of doing something is a act of thinking.

And so if you tell Figma, make, make
this screen, just lost a lot of thinking.

You might think that
you've sped up that time.

But the reality is by moving a
button, by moving a thing, you

actually create A connection in
your mind of what it could be.

You might have not parsed all the
taxonomy or the language or a screen

to screen what might be happening
because it doesn't have that context.

But you do, right?

Like you have, oh yeah, that's right.

We did that thing two months ago.

The machine currently doesn't have that.

Right?

what I would say is that,
we have to be careful.

And now you can use it to sketch.

And this is the way that I'm using
ai, if I'm making a UI and, I wrote

about this, it could be a conversation.

And this is a nuance that I try
to impart on my teams because

of the nature of the technology
itself, it is a predictive system.

one output for me and one output
for you are gonna look potentially

completely different, right?

But that's serendipitous difference.

Is actually you potentially having
a collaboration with the output, but

you're still the person who has to
think through those things, right?

Output for output's sake
is not gonna be helpful.

iteration, the fast iteration
process be like a sketch, but

you have to be even deeper.

I have found, you actually have
to be even deeper and to be like,

well, did that make sense or not?

Right?

So I was teaching a class at Intuit before
I left where, know, it was a 45 minute

class, the first thing was like, how are
we gonna get this done in 45 minutes?

Learn to use cursor.

And I was like, look dude, I'm
gonna speak for like 10 minutes.

gonna do something for five minutes
and then your mind's gonna be blown.

And then we're gonna just talk
about it for the next 30 minutes.

that's the thing.

so we got through the initial
part, everybody had cursor.

And I said, I want you guys to
prompt a coffee shop website.

And somebody a punk rock coffee shop
website, and it made it And they

were like, this is mind blowing.

but the thing that we landed on that was
the coolest part, the system output was

the naming of the size of the coffees.

one was like garage and the other
one was like black flag or something.

Like, it was just completely, interesting.

And it created a conversation.

So the prototype created a conversation
and we were like, is that really what

we were trying to go for or not go for?

And like, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

it was the start of a thing,
not the end of a thing.

And what I've seen, Is that a
lot of people output a thing

and it's the end of the thing.

And, and that's what I
caution teams on right now.

I think we should really talk about
the importance of design systems

and getting into the tactics.

Because that tactics part, again, a lot
of it'll be done 80% probably by ai, but

that 20%, like what, what I'm worried
about is that most productivity gains

are actually not realized by employees.

What you do is you save two hours and
you shove more work into the two hours

versus I've saved two hours and now I'm
gonna use that two hours do the detail.

And that's where design systems,
I think can come in and help us.

But, again, I'm, I'm going on some rants
here, but I have like hard opinions

about this I think design needs this.

Again, step up philosophically and start.

Engaging in a conversation
around work slop and things.

And I welcome everybody to go read
this article, because it could be a

spiral in the quality of your work.

And we, none, no designer, no
pm, no developer wants to ship

Hmm.

stuff,

Christian: Yeah.

J.B.:

they might be forced to if we
can't control the workflow outputs

that we, are provided by these.

Yeah.

Christian: I think that's a very
interesting way of putting it,

saying I've saved two hours.

That doesn't mean we're gonna do more
work, is we're gonna do work, we're gonna

do deeper work and more quality work.

And is that linked to what you said about
encouraging designers to take control

of their, sort of their careers saying

J.B.:

Mm-hmm.

Christian: In general, designers
ideally control their time.

They know how long the work takes.

And it's really their
responsibility to say, okay,

let's say this will take two days.

I can say, Hey, it's taking me two hours.

Give me something else to do.

Or I can still keep the team up to date
and say, it's still gonna take two days,

J.B.:

Mm-hmm.

Christian: now I can go a bit
deeper and do better quality work.

Is is that more the, the, the
avenue that designers should take?

J.B.:

Yeah, I think so.

like when I came into Red Pin,
particularly on the marketing brand

design side, was basically like
request in, request out, right?

It's output based, right?

And, and there's a reason
for that, by the way.

I'm not, like, there are times
when you need output based stuff,

Christian: Yeah.

J.B.:

Like

Christian: Okay.

J.B.:

you know, new.

Sometimes work has to get done and
revenues matter and everything like that.

we're trying to shift to is outcome based.

So exactly what you just talked about.

Like instead of it being how many widgets
can I produce, which a lot of times.

That's what design has been in the past.

if you've ever worked in an agency, it's
work all hours of the night to get the

concept and then work all hours of the
night to get the concept to the craft

level that you want it to be, right.

and get those outputs done.

so I think if design can focus on outcome
the metrics that are attached to the

business and to the customer and the
both of these things being balanced and

equal, then the conversation becomes
about the outcome and the depth of thought

then begins to really, really matter.

Then the execution of a ad or concept
or what, you know, whatever it might be.

It doesn't mean that the
execution does not matter, but

people will sense the care.

again, going back to the sense the care,
if you put deep thought because the

work will be better if you consider.

Specific things that you might
not have been considering there.

Now that being said, I wanna be clear
that like you can't know everything.

You can't know a hundred
percent of something.

And so you will learn,
you will make mistakes.

Design is a practice.

It's not a science, it's
not a definitive, right?

, I am a better designer than I was 20 years
ago, I will never be a perfect designer.

There's no such thing.

And so every year, new tools, new
things, new experiences, cultural

zeitgeists, everything like that shift.

And so I'm always in the mode
of practice and learning.

So the thing I deliver today, I will
be smarter a year from now and I

could have made that thing better.

But as we move through this new funnel
of work, we have, like, I love what you

said there, you know, I think one of
the, uh, just real quick, one of the

interesting things that I've experienced.

in tech in three different environments,
multiple environments in different

companies because not every team has
the same workflows or methods, right?

there's a imbalance I've experienced.

This might be different for you and
audience where developers can say,

this will take me x amount of time.

This will take me x amount of time.

And, they're given a little bit more
leeway in the Fibonacci scale or

whatever it is they're using for agile.

But design is compressed.

Design continually gets compressed.

And I think design has to stand up
and have similar processes in their

companies to say, this is how long this
will take the research and whatever.

And instead of it being like a person
saying, well, it should take you

faster get that thing done, it'd
be like, we wanna spend more time.

Truly understanding what the customer
needs on this side while we're

building it for the next evolution
or the iteration, rather than what's

the next new feature we can go build.

But I, I just, I think that's
gonna be really hard to influence.

speed is important.

Velocity is important, for
business, especially now.

but what's even better, for
businesses is making sure that

that velocity does not impede the
outcomes that they're trying to seek.

and design systems can help with this.

I wanna jump to this design systems thing.

'cause I think it's important for people
to, when we talk about the future of AI

and design, I think that is the crucial
element that we haven't spoken about yet.

Christian: Yeah, let's do it.

let's talk about it.

Yeah.

J.B.:

I see a world with AI where
designers actually create enablement

and tools for other people.

So let's say you work for a large company.

Let's say you work for a
medium company like I do.

or even a small company.

Design will always be
starved for resourcing.

We know that there's always trade offs
happening every time, if design can

create design systems, then we can enable
other people to make better decisions.

Design is just simply better decisions.

a pm developer are making
decisions that affect the design.

Even when you're not designing
something, it is still designed, right?

So, these design systems are so important
for the future, both from a UX perspective

and from a advertising perspective,
because you can now enable people to,

deliver your, vision as a designer.

So, going back to the example of
a pm delivering for prototype.

imagine that prototype without having
an understanding of the patterns or

your design system, how much better it
will be when it understands the patterns

in the design system of your product.

Now you're talking you, you may be, you
know, something that one might delivered

60% now delivers to that 80% because
now it can actually be implemented

and tested, you know, through code.

then other thing that that does is
like, very similar to Canva, you're

gonna be able to prompt things together.

If you're on the brand and marketing
side, like you're gonna be able

to say, this is the system that
we created, the brand system, the

campaign system that we created.

marketing person.

Go prompt all the things that
you wanna go prompt, right?

So I think that that's where design's
gonna find its, strategic wedge is like

if you're a design engineer or a designer
that works in design systems, I think

you're better positioned long term.

For the shifts that we're gonna make,
just because those systems are gonna

drive so much output for the organization
to get that velocity and speed.

there will always be maintenance
of those systems, which is great.

It means job security.

and it also means that you're gonna help
other people be able to think about their

work better and not worry about pipeline,
bottleneck issues when requests are made.

and so now you can go and talk to
customers and do journey mapping and

ensure that, conversion is improving
rather than, continually delivering

the same work over and over again.

Somebody else can maybe do that for
you and then you're art directing

or creative directing hundreds
of people to deliver your vision

Christian: so that's a matter of.

Making sure that whatever input AI
takes also takes into consideration

the foundations of a design right?

J.B.:

Mm-hmm.

Christian: Because right now, like you
said, if I go to AI and say, build me

a prototype of this, it's gonna build
you something, but it's not gonna look

anywhere close to what you really need.

So then you still need to take that and
put into Figma and do it screen by screen

and basically still doing the work.

What you're saying is, correct me if I'm
wrong, is now we feed that design system

into ai and now everyone in the company
can build a small three screen quiz,

prototype, or whatever it may be, right?

because it has the design system built in,
perhaps even connected to code already.

J.B.:

Mm-hmm.

Christian: So it's, like
a design system should be.

it reduces the barrier of entry
for everyone else to do sort of

the, the tactical work, moving the
pixels around allowing design to do.

More high level work, like you said,
more research, more and yeah, art direct.

I think that's an interesting
way of putting it.

But because you probably do need some
sort of a compliance system in place to

make sure that whatever goes live has
gone through the eyes of a designer,

sort of a QA system if you will.

But you're painting a very ideal
world, I think, or a very interesting

different world than what we do today.

Suddenly, it's not about
being in Figma all day.

That could be part of it, but suddenly
it could become about doing the high

level work, the background work.

J.B.:

Yeah.

And yeah, absolutely.

And poking around this space with
my own experiments, like outside

of work, like I'm building a tool
with AI to help me understand how

might this come to life, right?

. Figma always exists, right?

First off, like you're gonna have to
have the pixel perfection creation tools.

But even now they have, dev mode
and the code with the rest, API.

There's all these things that are in
their enterprise, access that allows

you to accelerate the development
of, a Figma into an actual code.

let's say that, uh, and I'm
gonna use Figma because it's

just the, it is the thing, right?

That, uh, I would say probably 90% of
UI designers use, and UX designers.

And it's, uh, just a overall general tool.

Now, for a lot of teams . So let's go
to Figma, make, Figma make potentially

is the product of the future for
them, If they have a design system,

they have Figma make, it's making
the thing that you want to do, and

then it goes directly into code.

So there's some, like you said, blurring
of the lines of all of these roles.

And so then, , it becomes a taste issue.

it becomes an understanding
of the customer issue.

It becomes a, what really matters
to people because, by their nature

LLMs, large scale LLMs, that are not
tuned to specific things, are doing

general Like this is the, highest
percentage chance answer, right?

we know that, that, that might
not resonate over time, right?

Because what becomes a best practice
usually loses its, cut through, right?

designers, PMs, developers, whomever
has that creative, power in the team

will be the arbiter of the taste of
the product and how it comes to life.

Because not everything
can be special, right?

you still need baseline patterns and
things like that to make the UX work.

when you do need something special,
gonna have to be able to say

like, oh, that isn't working.

This isn't working.

I see a world where Figma make
meets metrics, meets this thing

where you're analyzing an experience
over time you're like, this doesn't

feel right or this isn't happening.

And I'm sure there's somebody that
said, well, AI can do that job.

I'm sure there will be people that
try, I, I still believe that's gonna

create, a gap between good and great.

And the greater companies are gonna
have people that have good taste,

that understand their customers and
deliver, high quality at scale and

velocity, through the use of design
systems people that are experts and.

Delivering specific things.

So yeah, it's a tough, we're grasping
it, like we're trying to read our

tea leaves here of the future.

but I think everybody kind of has the
feeling that there is going to be a shift.

I think it'll be more
gradual than people can feel.

a lot of companies, like there was
a CDO downswing, and now companies

are starting to hire more CDOs.

And I think that's because experience
is gonna be, uh, I think these

business people know that experience
is gonna be extraordinarily

important as the future set is.

And it's gonna be built on these
systems that are ingested by AI and

then crafted, curated, and directed
by a group of really smart individuals

that, know their customer, and
understand their customer, more deeply

than a machine can because of how.

cultural shifts and things
happen in real time.

Christian: I got one
more question about ai.

I wanna move on to talking
a bit about teams as well.

I know you have some, strong opinions
there that I'd love to expand upon,

but I do have one more question.

the spark came from something that you
said, which is that, um, it's something

that I'm thinking a bit as well, that
AI is fueling a lot of homogenized

outputs, where a lot, like you said,
a lot is really, if, if three people

prompt the same thing more or less,
the same thing will come out perhaps

with different words or whatever it
may be, but, different colors if it's

a prototype, but it's the same thing.

And I'm starting to understand
just how important taste and craft.

Still are or, or are going
to become in the future?

They've been important until now.

just last season, we had an episode
with, Alistair, a VP of designer

Dropbox, and he talked 80% of the
episode about craft and taste.

And, AI was nowhere as big as
it is now, so I can imagine

what he would say now, right?

It's just craft and taste is still needed
because a machine might not, at least

right now, be able to design something
that looks like it's been cared for.

whenever someone says that products
can have soul, the first example that

I have is if you've ever downloaded
arc, the browser for the first time.

J.B.:

Yeah.

Christian: then it's magical.

And then you realize that the
product can have so, you open it

the first time you think, whoa, I
have not seen anything like this.

And those small, delightful moments,
it's so clear that someone has

thought about that experience of
opening art for the first time.

For a long time they came up with that.

And I doubt that any sort of
machine, at least to in the state

that it is today and short term,
will be able to come up with that.

That left an impression on me.

And I think what you're saying is
the more we can do that as designers

paired with the capabilities of ai,
the better our products will be.

Am I missing something here or.

J.B.:

no, that you're absolutely right.

I had that exact same experience with
the play date by Panic, like when you

use the Play Date, which is a video
game system that mimics kind of the Game

Boy Pass has a black and white screen.

It's not backlit, and it was
designed by teenage engineering,

it has like a crank on the side.

It, you could tell immediately.

That the team that created that,
even with all the constraints of

it's black and white screen, it's
mostly eight bit kind of architect.

Like it's trying to, you know,
it's nostalgia but filled.

But you can feel the care, you
can feel the craft, and you can

feel that people really put time
and effort and thought into this.

And they considered their
audience, they considered the

people that will use this thing.

It feels like a great product.

It behaves like a great product.

The animations are chef's kiss.

I cannot tell you how
magical this device is.

And I've yet to see AI do this by itself.

I've created some cool stuff,
some cool experiments, you know,

with, WebGL and things like that.

I would never have access
to Well, but if I put.

You know, make a thing for a 20 something
Gen Z, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

it's really gonna fail at that.

And it's gonna fail because authenticity
matters to the audiences, especially

when the potential of niche audience.

And so, to your point, like with Arc, it
blew you away because it spoke to you.

it made the technology feel like it's,
something's about cool to happen based

on your taste, based on your stuff.

and that's what Play Date did.

I bought it 'cause I wanted to have
like a side thing that I just, you

know, away from my phone and whatnot.

But I opened that thing up and I instantly
understood the people that built it.

that's what I try to do for
the accountants I work with.

wish I could talk more about that,
still under NDA on that stuff.

And, uh, the work that we're doing
right now with Red Pen and for

property professionals, I want them
to see themselves in the product.

I want them to look at it and say,
this team understood me where we

maybe supplemented and helped by ai.

Absolutely.

But the final decisions, the final
craft, the final work crafted by

humans for other humans, and they feel
like this product was made for them.

and I want them to have that
reaction to the work that we do.

And I just don't think prompting for
output is not the way it's gonna be.

you have to use it as a thinking
tool to your point you said earlier.

Right.

you know, this is the hill I'll die on.

And I'm sure that there's plenty
of startups that would never hire

me because of my thought processes.

I believe that you can balance
these things and be critical about

the work that you deliver and
make sure it works for people.

And, and I actually think that's
better business long term.

And, uh, you know, like building things
for your first Like we are, they're not

customers, they're clients, when you start
taking that process, like, I'm serving

this person, they're my client rather than
a customer that's purchasing something

for me, the relationship shift, the craft
becomes even more important and you're

able to deliver awesome things to them.

And will matter long term in my opinion.

It will develop better brand love.

, it'll show that our promise
can be paid off in the product.

The product will resonate more deeply with
the audience that we're looking to serve,

Christian: I think

J.B.:

right.

Christian: there's a lot of parallels
here to be drawn with the real world, the

non-digital world where you can see in
product especially made longer time ago,

just how much soul they were made with.

My grandfather recently passed away and
he had a, um, an old, I think it was

a 96 Mercedes E two 20, and I sat in
it for the first time as an adult, um,

as, as we went to, to, to the funeral.

And, I could just appreciate.

Car very differently than any of the cars
that are around today, which, hey, they're

technologically capable and they're still
incredible cars, safety and all of that.

But when it comes to craft, when
it comes to care, everything

sits in the right place.

you touch things and you
get your goosebumps a little

bit thinking about that.

it's just cra So whoever
says that things cannot have.

So, have never sat in one of those,
or have never seen a, a, you know, a

drawer or a wardrobe built 50 years
ago by someone by hand or have never

been to Japan and seen one of those
big buildings built with no nails.

It's just a joinery.

It's just perfect and it's just craft
does exist and oftentimes, I'm trying

to think on a daily basis, how could
I bring more of that into the work?

And I think you've said something
interesting today which really connected

those thoughts for me, which is AI is
not there to allow you to do more work.

AI is there to take some of the work
away so that you could do deeper work.

So I just love that.

So I think that's a good, uh, a good
ending to the AI topic, although I

could probably, talk about this for
way longer and I'm sure so could you,

but there is one other thing that I'd
like to talk about with you because

you have some really lovely ideas
there that I think the audience could

benefit from, which is about teams.

You call it real teams.

You have an essay about the real team.

so, uh, tell me what a real team is
and what, what's, what's a fake team,

you know, but, what's a real team?

and how do you know your teams
are real and how do you build one

? J.B.:

yeah.

I'm not like, I'm like a catchphrase guy.

Part of it's 'cause like, I write a lot
and, I have a, you know, when I was in,

UDI, accidentally got an English minor
because I was writing and taking creative

writing classes and, um, you know,
doing, classes about Hemingway and stuff.

And so being super concise and like
Seth Godin and Hemingway, I was

like, you know, part of my thing.

And, and then one day I was thinking
about real teams and teams are tough, man.

like, think about we, we kind
of like abstract ourselves

from what a team really is.

So first off, a company is literally
just a promise made on paper.

There's no reason for us to like,
think about what a company is.

It's like a legal document.

That's what a company is.

And then a bunch of people go, Hey, that
legal document matters to me because I'm

getting currency to go to this thing,
and now I get to interact with the

other people to build this other thing
other people are gonna interact with.

It's just, you know,
there's a absurdity here.

And so I, I kind of took a step back
and be like, what is a real team?

A real team is a bunch of people who
are trying to not bring the baggage

of the personal life to create
something magical for someone else.

Like there it's a service model, right?

And I was like, what
would make a real team?

What is something that, and by real team,
I mean, and I have one line that kind

of cuts through it, I say to my teams
when they're working with somebody, are

you cooperating or are you collabor?

Right.

When we talk about the police, we
cooperate with the police, right?

We don't collaborate with the police.

we're trying to like be like, wait a
minute, is something weird going on here?

I need to understand, you know, like,
and I'm gonna try to make things just

as easy as possible for myself, right?

That most people, right, they're
like, I just don't want to

step outta line in any ways.

'cause this is an authority figure.

And so if you're in a team where you're
cooperating, you're not a real team.

And that's just straight up.

So if you're collaborating,
that's different.

you can have disagreements, well,
you know, professional disagreements.

And at the end of the day, you know
that you're gonna align on something.

You might not agree with everything,
but you agree with something and you

promise each other in that collaboration
that you're gonna be better for it.

the teams that have really resonated
with me and my career teams where.

and the individuals around me where, we
can have a knockout drag out fight about

a thing and then high five at the end of
the meeting, That's collaboration to me.

There's always going to be tension
and chaos in an organization,

how do you navigate that tension
and chaos, I think, proves if

somebody's on a real team or not.

I have like, I don't know,
like 20 lines about this.

'cause again, it was like something I
was just kind of, I wanted to write.

but that's the one that
really like, resonates to me.

And I talk about a lot with my teams.

Like, are you co cooperating
with the PM right now?

Are you collaborating with them?

Are you just doing what they're
saying because you're just

frustrated with the situation?

Have you expressed your frustration with
them ? Do you understand the first, do

you understand what they're being held to?

Because a lot of times, designers.

Aren't being held to specific
metric outputs or outcomes, right?

Like they're, they're kind of, deviated
away from the marketing person who has

a revenue number, Or a PM that must
reach some type of conversion thing,

like they're being held to, a lot of
times in a lot of companies not being

held to the same, metrics as somebody.

and we all know that metrics
change the way that people behave.

Like they're willing to ship
things that aren't perfect.

They're willing to, you know, not have
what we would call baseline, um, you know,

experiences in order to deliver that.

and then on the other side of
that is it's, they're a human

being that probably has some crazy
thing happening in their life.

And so if you're having a tough
thing, just have a conversation

with them, like, why is this such
a tough conversation to have?

And so that's what I, I believe a real
team is a real team, is collaborating,

understanding what motivates each
individual, and then being able to

have real discussions about why they're
making the decisions that they're making.

Understanding the trade-offs.

And if a designer can understand
those things, then they

can navigate them better.

a PM can navigate them better and a
developer can navigate them better.

But if we're cooperating with them,
then you immediately are never

going to be happy because you're
not thinking about these people that

have come together because of a piece
of paper, that are being paid, that

have families at home and pressures
that you might not be able to see.

and I have another line about that.

Like they try to work through
unhealthy conflict prior to

escalating, Like, that's the thing.

Like if you escalate immediately,
you're not a real team.

You're, you're not

Christian: Hmm.

J.B.:

to work through a problem like
escalations happen, they will.

But, man, yeah.

that's kind of the gist.

, Christian: First of all, we're gonna put
it all in the show notes, so, um, the

audience can read the actual article,
but, uh, but for the sake of this, if

you are in a space right now, in a team
where you are realizing, oh, wow, JB

just listed these things, does look like
we're cooperating, not collaborating.

Am I right in thinking that getting
a better understanding of each other

is what can move a team from collab,
from cooperating to collaborating?

Or are there any other things there,
tactical, that we could employ if we,

if we are in a cooperating situation.

J.B.:

Oh, that's a great question.

So the first thing I would ask, I
did this with my personal teams,

and then I'd do it through like
interviews, like when I'm first joining.

So Red Pin, I was just like, Hey,
tell me what, well, the first thing

is like, a question that Johnny Jang,
uh, who's the best hire I've ever

had, who still works at Intuit, he's
a badass researcher, is like, just

gauge them on their design knowledge.

Like what's, you know.

What's your favorite design?

What's something that you love?

Or design would be a first question.

'cause then you can be like, okay,
they value efficiency or they value

productivity, or they value, like,
they might value a product that

you're like, that is not a good
product, so I gotta understand more

about why they love this thing.

Right?

And then the second thing is
like the best work of their life.

is the best work of their life and why?

And so getting to know
people and those things.

And most people don't say, because
I, uh, we were able to deliver 10 x

growth, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

There will be people that say that, right?

And then you can know what they're
really after as individuals.

Most people actually talk about people
oh, we had this really hard thing and

we came together and we delivered.

so now you can understand and
you can point that out and

be like, oh, I want that too.

So you get to kind of understand
the underlying part of that.

the business side, I once the,
a new VP came into Intuit one

time and this guy was awesome.

was Simon, and he came in everybody was
like talking about, we were having an

issue with something, and he asked this
question, what did they get paid on?

And I was like, man, that is such
a, it's a cut through question.

It basically saying, why is this guy
not engaging us in this conversation?

Is it because he doesn't care
because he isn't getting paid on it?

meaning, like he's not, his
bonus, doesn't matter on his

salary, doesn't matter on it.

And so therefore, why would he engage us?

Like, I mean, it's just
a really good question.

And so understanding what metrics
that everybody should be accountable

for, is really important.

then you're gonna understand the personal
motivation and the business motivation

when you understand the personal
motivation, that's just something to

mitigate or understand But the business
motivation, everybody should have the

same business motivation , So if the
developer's, like, I'm really worried

about velocity and, uh, story time
cycle, and the PM's like, I'm worried

about revenue and dah, dah, dah, and the
designer's worried, like, worried about

this, you're not worried about revenue
or story time cycle, and they're not

worried about the usability scores or
the CES scores or whatever, then you're

immediately gonna have all this conflict.

And so how do you get everybody on the
same page with metrics because then

you're collaborating on the same outcomes
rather than, hey, my, hey, hey, jB

really is worried about like customer
effort score, and it's not on our list.

Can we just mention it in a meeting?

That's not a good way to
get things done, right?

So like, how do we push, or how
do we come together and say.

understand each other from a personal
perspective and the things, and then the

final thing is like, are we all aligned
with these metrics are important so that

we're all motivated by the same things?

and that could be usability, could be not.

And if you can't get to that li alignment
on the metrics, then I can tell you right

now, you're gonna be co cooperating for
a majority of that, relationship because

gonna be making trade offs left and
right for your own values and the things

that you're being held to, which is not
good, because then your boss might be

like, why isn't this thing going up?

And then you're gonna be like, well, the
PM doesn't care, or the developer doesn't

care, or the person doesn't care, and
they're gonna be like, well make 'em care.

Christian: Right.

J.B.:

yeah.

Christian: Can you make them care?

Is it, is it easy for a designer to
bring all of these worlds together and

say, here's the thing, can we agree
on the thing that we all care about?

Or is that up to someone else to do?

You were talking about high
agency earlier, perhaps.

Is this one of the moments where a
designer can show some high agency and

say, Hey, I've noticed that we all care
about different things and it means

we work on different things there.

Should we align here?

Is that something a designer can do
tomorrow at work, or you don't think so?

J.B.:

Yeah.

No, I think so.

I think, I think like if you're a real
team, you'll have to make space to have

these conversations you know, whether
it's a, maybe you're doing a agile

ritual where you're like, Hey guys, I,
I just kind of noticed, you know, like,

we're really focused on this number.

I believe that if we focus on this
as well, that will drive that number.

You know, could have that.

Or you could say like, what are the
things that we're all worried about?

do we all have the same goals?

And one way to test this is, you
know, like a lot of times people

do workshops or whatnot where they
start just, what is our goals?

And then

Christian: Yeah.

J.B.:

and they're putting them
up at the same time.

I am really big into being like,
everybody's gonna write our three

top goals on a sticky silently,
and then we're gonna compare them.

Because what you're doing now is
you're allowing people to express

what they believe the goals are
without being influenced outwardly.

And so now all of a sudden you
might have three stickies, or

well, maybe three to six stickies.

If they all say the same
thing, I would be shocked.

but if they did, then you
know that there's no problem.

You're like, great, know, I just wanted
to make sure we were on the same page.

But if they're different,
now you have a conversation.

Begin YX, did you put this?

Or do we all agree that these things?

Do we need five things?

Do we need four?

Do we need three?

Do we need two?

I believe that design this naturally.

We're like a, a soothsayer walking
through the hallways, connecting

and brand and sales and cs,
and, you know, all these things.

And we don't get credit for a lot of
that work because it's relational credit.

and I think designers need to start taking
credit for that work and tell their bosses

like, well, actually I sat the team down.

What we saw was this, this, and
this, and dah, dah, dah, dah.

And now we're aligned to this.

And make sure that they
say those things too.

And, and then actively say, Hey
boss, I want you to talk to the PM

leader and tell them I did this.

take credit for the great
work you do, have those hard

conversations with your team.

And then if you notice that you
can't make progress in the way that

you wanna work, and by the way, This
is a personal decision that you'll

have to make in your career, then
it might not be the place for you.

Right?

maybe your style, maybe your
thing is, what's it called?

Or maybe the team, maybe the company needs
something different, from the designer.

Maybe all they want is output,
and have to grapple with that if

that's the situation you're in.

Christian: Lovely.

I think we've gotten to the end
of the episode successfully.

No one got injured.

We have a couple more questions that
I ask everyone at the end of the show.

The first one is, where do you look
for inspiration in your day to day?

J.B.:

Yeah.

Uh, day to day, it's poetry.

So I get a daily poem
from the Paris Review.

read, a lot of poetry from David White,
who's just, you know, I would every person

here to check out book Constellations.

I think people should pay
attention more to poetry.

I think there are two times in life when,
or one, maybe one time in life when people

really core down on poetry and that's when
maybe they have a loss in their family.

And by the way, I wanna say, uh, I'm
sorry for your loss or your grandfather.

I know how important my
grandfathers were to me.

Uh, so just to, uh, acknowledge that.

And a lot of times people find this
piece of poetry and it speaks to them.

It says like, wow, that really
articulated the feeling of being

human and the feeling of the things.

And so when I read poetry, I think
about how expressive we are a species

and how a lot of our experiences
cannot be contained by language.

But when somebody does articulate
that feeling, I become just

more, engaged in the world.

Then I go, man, if they
can do it, I can do it.

Christian: Lovely.

I should have asked that
as the last question.

'cause is that, that would've
been a really good ending.

J.B.:

it.

Yeah.

Christian: can, I can move them around.

The last one you might have already
answered, but if there's anything

else that pops into your head, what
is something that you believe AI will

not be good at and therefore that
designers should probably double down on

? J.B.:

Poetry.

Uh, yeah.

Christian: I did say that was the
ending, so, maybe we ended on poetry.

, J.B.:

I think it's gonna be taste.

Look at how fast things
shift in trends and fads.

like, what is that Labu,
Booo, whatever that thing was.

I'm not young enough now to truly engage
in that part of the culture, but like

that isn't, know, it's unpredictable.

might be able to, you know, craft
something, create a campaign and

get the right people to talk about
something, to make it popular.

But there's always gonna be these
black swan events and things like that

that can completely shift the culture.

And I just don't think AI is gonna be
able to handle that when it occurs.

I just like, it's gonna make a bunch
of assumptions based on previous

stuff, not on current stuff.

And we know that we will, I would expect
AI to make some really good predictions,

but it will not always know what human
behavior will do because, emotion, these

black swan events, things that happen all
the time are gonna be really difficult.

And I think designers and creatives
and everybody that works in tech

and businesses, We'll have a better
understanding of than a machine ever

could and therefore can make better
decisions for those humans and shift the

topics that need to be shifted in things
that might, might help people through

challenging times or even good times.

uh, so yeah, I, I just think that
AI's not gonna be good at anticipating

the fickleness human behavior as
much as we think it will, because

there will always be those moments
that just shift everything . I'm not

sure what those moments are gonna
be in the future, because I wouldn't

have predicted a pandemic, you know,
when it happened and people kept

talking about, it's gonna come, it's
gonna come, but when it did come.

We were not very good.

So I don't think AI is gonna, be
able to help us navigate, or it'll

help us navigate, but it's not gonna
be able to make long-term decisions

when things like that happen because
the models are based on the past,

Christian: And I think by default, humans
are also unpredictable, aren't they?

Um, so you can't predict
something unpredictable.

J.B.:

Yeah.

Christian: this has been a great episode.

Is there anything else at
the end that you wanna add?

Something that I should have asked, but I
haven't, I dunno, anything of that sort?

J.B.:

uh, last thing would be like,
Hey, designers, on yourself . Keep

your values, think deeply be
the change that you wanna see.

I know that's like a trite saying,
but like, I truly believe that

design, it can be powerful.

and we need to take.

More responsibility for the stuff
that is being put out in the world.

I don't think we did.

I think we went for a ride and now
it's our, it's our opportunity now,

the AI to make the changes that we
seek, in the world to make it a more

equitable, better place for everyone.

Christian: awesome.

Thank you, jb.

This has been a great episode.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

J.B.:

I appreciate you.

Thank you.