Design Meets Business

Christian: Welcome to design meets
business, a show where design leaders talk

about practical ways to quantify design
about making our work more transparent

and about how designers can make a
bigger impact in their organization.

I'm your host Christianne resident.

And before we begin, I'd like to
thank you for tuning in today.

on the show today.

We've got David standard,
senior UX manager at Shopify.

You'll hear an awesome conversation
about experimentation building

trust with your team and how David's
background as an entrepreneur

helped him become a better designer.

I hope you enjoyed the conversation.

David welcome to design which business I'm
so excited to have you on today, because

one of the aspects about your career
that I've noticed is that, uh, you know,

not only it spans almost two decades,
but you have a lot of experience there.

That's intertwined with ventures
that you've started on your own and

then design at the highest level.

So there's, there's some
entrepreneurship, there's some design.

And, and when he came to talk
about that intersection of design

and business, I thought you are
the right person to bring on.

So thanks for, thanks for coming on.

Appreciate it.

, before you spread your knowledge on us,
maybe you want to give us a bit, a bit of

a quick rundown of, uh, of what brought
you to well now to Shopify, but also,

you know, where you've been beforehand
and then we can go on from there.

David: That sounds great.

Sounds great.

Thanks so much for inviting me
onto the, uh, onto the show.

, it's definitely, I think a.

Uh, cord that's kind of struck with
me and I think you're on a really,

really interesting theme, so yeah,
very much happy to contribute

and be a part of something.

So it's, uh, yeah, let's see.

Let's see where things go.

Um, yeah, a bit, a bit of
a quick rundown from me.

So I I'm, I, uh, kind of a
UX leader at Shopify, , been

there for just under a year.

Possibly, and I focused on
the money sector, , but kind

of just a bit of a backstory.

Um, I've had quite a very career.

Um, I've consulted, , freelanced had
quite a mix of a variety of work.

I think that's kind of really
helped me find my feet and, you

know, give me a sense of who I
am and what really makes me tick.

, I've ventured into starting my own
business, which was a dating app.

Uh, so I got very close to commercials,
um, and very much around, you know,

the function of a business also
started, um, you know, pop being

part of a founding team, , which was,
uh, borough in the mortgages sector.

Um, and so, you know, naturally I've
found myself leading more towards

business and, and actually I think
, where I've found my fees, FinTech,

um, and I think, , one of the last
companies in the credit card industry

was, was, you know, I think one of the.

Key moments through that
that's really helped me connect

business and design together.

Cause I think that commercial aspect
of things really helps , pull the

best out of design, , and make
things, , as impactful as possible.

Yeah.

You

Christian: talk about impact in one of
the sentences or the way you introduce

yourself on your own website to see it.

See, I did my research.

So you you're you're and I'm going
to quote you, you're saying, you

know, I'm passionate about, measuring
the impact of design using design

metrics, learning from feedback, task
completion, rate, conversion, rate time

and cost efficiencies to demonstrate
business, , return on investment.

And to me, whenever I look at portfolios
today, it's all about here's the

latest design that I worked on.

Here's the latest app we've
been app of the year, whatever,

but very rarely you get to see.

An introduction like this, which
focuses on the business ROI on KPIs,

but even less so from designers.

Right?

You can, you can find that from
product managers, um, you know,

people, people in, in, in similar
roles, but very rarely from designers.

So let's unpack that a little bit.

, how have you found that mentality
and an interest in business KPIs?

How have you found that help
you as a designer and bring

it to where you are right now?

David: I think, I mean, probably it's
been a natural course of my own January.

I think it's a.

In terms of like the measurement
of return on investment.

I think one of the key things for
me is, is , how do you demonstrate

the success of your work?

But I think if you kind of go
even a little bit deeper, how

does a designer feel rewarded
through the work that they do?

Some, some designers love the aesthetic
side of things or the designers, you

know, especially in product, wants to
be able to see the impact the work has.

And I think what's really important
is having a, almost like a bit of a

sense of structure to be able to help
people come on that journey with you.

And I think, you know, that's what
I have found , , in the past is.

, if design works in isolation, um,
you end up having, , almost like

moments of trying to try and catch
people up on the decisions that

you've made, , , throughout journeys.

And I think what's really important is
that people, if people come together

and , they come on the same journey
as a designer to make the decisions

and understand the decisions and
have them made, , that generally

helps design succeed much better.

And it it's then much easier to
demonstrate the return on investment or

the impact that the design has, because
they're all part of , that same journey.

I think that's kind of what I've
learned is trying to kind of

communicate, um, with, with business
leaders, strategists, right.

And talk the same language.

And I think that's kind of a
bit of a skill I've probably

picked up all the time.

You know, it doesn't always, it
doesn't happen overnight and,

you know, actually the general.

You know, people, people were
quite skeptical of design.

I think it's quite a risky thing.

, if you're going to run an experiment,
, isn't this going to be a bit of a risky

thing for the commercial side of things.

But I think that, you know, kind of
connecting it back to the journey,

if there's a way to kind of take
people on a bit of a path, uh, get

on the same page, be honest about
the things you're trying to achieve.

, generally helps build trust with
all of these different teams and

kind of tries to center things
a bit more around the objective

things of what you're trying to do.

, , hopefully that kind of packs a
little bit of it, but there's

probably a little bit more,

Christian: yeah, it unpacks quite a bit.

It unpacks enough so that we
can continue the conversation.

So that's good.

Something you mentioned there,
which I am a, I talk about it all

the time but you've mentioned that.

The important component of even if you
being able to do your work properly,

because if you don't have trust in the
team or the team doesn't have trust in

you, they're not going to be so open
to trying out some of these experiments,

or they might not believe in your idea.

So I joined a company today,
how do I build that trust?

Because trust takes
time and it's not hard.

It's not easy to do.

David: Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and it's, it's, it's not something
that literally happens straight away.

You know, it's not, you join him one
day and ,, , you almost need to build

that trust in time and demonstrate that,
uh, little by little, , , and it's,

it's almost like trying to find , the
right places to be able to demonstrate

the kind of impact to then demonstrate
the trust, um, and, and finding the

right places to, to kind of measure
your work and make it visible to the

rest of the rest of the business.

Right.

So I think it's very much is designed.

Yeah, it can sometimes be quite,
can be quite closed if you, if

you're working quite passionately
, , , into one piece of work.

But I think it's really important
to be really, really open, have

open conversations and to have, and
be really transparent about , what

you're trying to effect in your work.

Right.

So I think if, if things don't necessarily
pan out, , it's not an embarrassment,

it's not, it's a learning opportunity.

, , talking about failure is probably one
of the most important things, because if

you're measuring design and you're trying
to, for example, improve the conversion

funnel, you're looking for a failure.

So let's talk about those failures.

It's one of those things that you
need to talk about to be able to

know how to make a difference or make
a change, to make an improvement.

So.

That, that kind of trust.

It does come in time, but
you're slowly starting to build

momentum as well across teams.

And so by helping people understand the
decisions, helping people, , actually

come on the same journey, have those
kind of joined up conversations

, , helps move things forward.

Really.

And I think again, when I guess working
with different teams, let's say maybe you

have strategy teams in your organization.

, it's very important to think more
kind of pragmatically about design

them than the, almost like the surface
level of a redesign you have to

really go into what are the objectives
that you're trying to achieve?

, maybe even talk about the assumptions
that the team may have already had, um,

and try to form a bit of a, a kind of a
consensus in terms of how you want to move

forward,, and, and tackle the problem.

Right.

, , and have, uh, I call them experiments
about, but some businesses

don't even like experiments
because it sounds really risky.

Um, so you don't, don't even call it
an experiment, , try and move into

kind of a, move the conversation into
almost like, Hey, we're trying to

improve things, but we're trying to find
opportunities to learn, um, and trying

to find ways in terms of how we can show.

The commercial growth of an improvement,
or even the operational savings, , we're

trying to, you know, there's two sides
of design and it's very rare that you

get to dig into those, those metrics
and, and see how you can affect all the

different parts of the organization.

Um, yeah, so it's, it's very much
around a clear trying to tell a

clear story, , that helps people
, come along that same journey.

Really.

Christian: I find that it's slightly
easier to do that when you join an

organization, that's maybe a bit more,
maybe a bit larger, or they already

have KPIs in place and they already
know what they want from design and

they hire designers for a specific
problem to solve or set of problems.

So that's all good.

And well, I think where a lot of
designers are struggling is when maybe

they're the first hire a company, or
maybe they join a company that hasn't

nearly fully bought into design.

Therefore, there are no metrics
coming from a both sorts of.

As to what you need to improve.

So then the challenge becomes, I have
this product that I need to improve.

All it's been told to me is that I need
to make it better, but from you need

to make it better to here's the actual
impact that I can have on this business.

By changing the product in specific
ways is a very long, long way.

And I feel that if you're a bit
less experienced, you might not

necessarily know, well, , how
do I get to those metrics?

All I know is that I need to
improve this product metrics.

What are those, what metrics,
what are we talking about?

And I think that's where it becomes
really important for a designer

to have a conversation or several
conversations . With people around

the business, not necessarily only
within your little product team, but

it could be people from marketing could
be just truly anyone, everyone in the

company works , to improve a specific,
a specific area of that company.

, and the more you talk to people
around, the more you can start

joining up all these quote unquote
problems that everyone has and see

how we can solve them through design.

So something that I've, I've
something I do every single time.

, whenever I joined a new companies,
I go and speak to people around the

business, not so much about design, but
just about what's important to them.

What are the metrics you need
to hit as a product manager?

What's important to you as a developer,
and then figure out you as a designer, not

only through your design work, but also.

Who you are and how you work
on a daily basis, how can you

help them achieve their goals?

And I find that that builds a lot
of trust as well, which obviously

becomes very helpful later on, when
you need a developer to do a bit of

work on the weekend for you or to,
you know, all that stuff, right?

David: Yeah.

It's all about getting on
the same page, you know?

Um, and, and totally just, you know,
really enough the back of where, where

you, where I think what is important is
understanding all of those core metrics.

So like, if you're all going to
talk to a marketing team, yeah.

One of the metrics for them will
be, what is the acquisition?

What does, you know, what's
that, that's our core metric.

How many people coming through, right.

Yeah.

More product teams may look at adoption.

So how many people are using, , the
new features that was on, how are

we able to activate those customers
coming in, , from our marketing team.

, and then going further as like, you know,
how are those users sticking around?

So what's the retention rate of those
years that are users that are coming in?

Are they, are they using,
they're using the product again?

Are they spending more money?

, and then that bleeds to referral,
are they, are they using it so much

to the point that they're excited
enough to share it with somebody else?

And that becomes, you know, the organic
referral that know every, every company

wants to kind of achieve and that
may lead to some form of incentive.

But then I think connecting design to
all of the core metrics, you know, design

fits into all of these different spaces.

I think it's the, it's
kind of it's the outside.

Kind of, or, or even just the, the PR
the peripheral metrics that kind of sit

into all of these, almost the in-betweens
of all of these different aspects.

, so for example, I don't know if a
signal will be around, around adoption.

, you may have a kind of a feedback loop
that comes all the way back from a

call center, and you've got lots of
complaints and frustrations and how

you're capturing all of those different
signals to help you understand.

There's a point in that part of the,
the metric that you can affect and

you can go and you can dig into it,
you can find out what was happening.

So you may have lots of
different signals around UX.

It could be behavioral frustrations
that you can actually use to help from.

The thing that you're
trying to achieve, right?

You've got task completion rates
that you may want to go really,

you know, it's all around.

How efficient is it that how easy is it
that you're trying the experience that

you're trying to create it also looking
at the failure rates, what are those

key failure points within an acquisition
funnel to then help you dig in further

to, to say, oh, this, this, maybe some,
maybe we're saying the wrong thing.

It's not leading them to the next
step or whatever it might be.

There's lots of, kind of key signals that
help you as a designer fill in the gaps.

I think that's kind of quite
quite an interesting thing to dig

into because actually businesses
do very much set on that.

Good, the core metrics.

And I think it's finding that way,
the mechanical being able to kind of

connect design into those conversations
that becomes really, really important.

So.

Overall the feedback loop for
design feedback feels design.

It also helps fuel design
will fuel the business.

, so that the wider feedback back loops are
really, really important, but also kind of

the really micro feedback loops are super
important because they really they're.

They're really help other teams understand
that the nuances that design goes

after to then say, actually a small
change here is a big, big uplift here.

And it's very hard to,, it's hard
to be in those conversations.

And I think like we were talking
before, it takes a lot of time

to build the trust, to be able to
get into those, you know, smaller

conversations and digging into metrics
and looking at dashboards, you know,

to be in those conversations together.

, it's, you know, it just takes time.

You you've gotta be slow, you
gotta be patient and, and yeah.

Depending on how long
you've been in the industry.

Um, you know, patience is
key, , and it will unlock doors

Christian: for sure.

I think it's it's you said something
interesting though, you know, it takes

time to become part of those discussions.

And that certainly is my experience.

Whenever you join a company that hasn't
necessarily bought into the power of

design just yet, that takes time because
as we said earlier, build that trust.

Yeah.

But it also takes time.

The moment you are in those conversations.

To get up to speed with what a lot of
those conversations mean and what what's

a KPI and what is a time completion
rate and what are, what's an EMPS court?

Why are all these things that when you are
a bit earlier in your career, you haven't

necessarily heard about that much school.

Doesn't really teach that.

Yeah.

We're starting as an industry to
talk about it, but we haven't,

we're not really there yet.

So the moment you are in those
conversations, how do you get

from not understanding anything?

So starting to be able to juggle
all these metrics and know, you

know, if I do this in the product,
it will affect that metric.

If I do this, it will affect that metric.

How do you get there?

David: Uh, it's all about asking
the right questions or are you just

asking silly questions to start with?

Right.

You know, don't, don't be afraid to be,
to say the wrong thing, and, you know,

it's, it's fine, you know, businesses
they operate with a certain cadence and

sometimes you have, when you're New York,
you're trying to get up to speed, but

I think you've got a good excuse there.

You know, you're getting up
to speed or you've never heard

of this abbreviation before.

Cause I mean, I don't know how many
companies that I've been in and I've

got so many crazy abbreviations just ask
what, what does that abbreviation mean?

You know, what's the acronym, what is it?

What is it all about?

Um, and how, you know, how do you measure
that is also a really great question.

So ask, uh, you know, a strategy
team that's, that's very, very

focused on measuring impact, right.

And, uh, measuring what you know, so
the commercial growth of a business.

It's good because that question
actually helps other people open up.

Right.

And that, and actually be more inclined
to talk about themselves in, the

job that they're passionate about.

Um, you know, you just, it's just, you
know, finding great ways to communicate

and helping people open up to tell their
own story is probably a really good way

to just start a conversation anyway.

And that will also signal, you know,
that you're trying to get to know them

and you're getting some understand the
business, how they work, how you even

got opportunities in terms of how you
can help them, , in the role, , Yeah,

I mean, and the same with products,
you know, it's, product can sometimes

be quite, can be quite blinkered.

, but actually, you know, digging, digging
in deeper to say, actually, the key

question that we're asking him, maybe
the wrong thing we're focusing on.

And I think we may have an opportunity
to to look at it from a different angle.

And, you know, we were talking initially
about experiments, other opportunities

to run experiments and, and try and
hit the same objective, but from a

slightly different angle, I think we're
all, all important conversations.

I think that's, that's the kind of
conversation you need to try and find,

find your way in to be able to, you
know, even say, Hey, you have an idea.

So do I, I think we're trying to hit
the same objective here, but also

even the idea, um, can always can
always I think people feel quite

precious, especially when everybody's.

And in the sense of like, everyone's
trying to make an impact, everyone's

trying to make an impression, but
actually as a team, it's not, it's

not yourself, but it should be the
team that comes together and aligns.

Um, and that, that's how, the
team you're probably going to

make a bigger impact overall.

Um, yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

It takes, you know, going back to
the time thing, things take time

and I think he's gotta be accepted.

Christian: They do say
design is a team sport.

Isn't

David: it's it definitely is.

You know, it really is.

I

Christian: want to talk about the
experimenting for a second, but before

that, I just want to touch briefly
upon the previous point and say that

my experience, whenever you go to talk
to people who have a really good grasp

on data, so that could be a product
analyst that could be an analytics

team, depending how your company
or your organization is structured.

But, and this could just be a personal
experience, personal opinion, but I

find that very rarely people want.

Talk to them about their work as they
find numbers and all of that boring.

And I find that whenever you go and
talk to them, they are so open to

sharing everything they know, and they
can truly become one of your allies,

um, in a way, if you want to think of
it like that, because suddenly someone

shows interest in numbers and data,
which is their day to day, right?

So again, all about building trust,
all about opening up conversations

that we're not having enough of.

I'd like to argue, and then as soon as
you start doing that, you'll find that

people will be much more open towards
working with you and also much more

open to follow some of your hunches,
some of your gut decisions, you know?

Yeah.

Be more open to.

Try something from a slightly different
perspective, which you've got to remember.

They may have been sat on certain
assumptions for years and they're very,

you know, they could be really keen to
move something forward because their

initial assumption may not have been
aligned with an overall company objective.

So, you know, there are probably
opportunities where you can support

existing assumptions, but actually by
doing that, we'll create the space for

something, if you, for you to be able
to try something new out in the future.

So it's, you know, you gotta be
patient, you gotta gotta be gotta

be careful at the same time, but
you know, be supportive, right.

David: There's it's, it's a two way
conversation at the end of the day,

when you have them at different times.

Christian: Yeah.

And I think this brings it back full
circle to my initial question, which was

how do you get the numbers to work with?

And I think if you do build those
relationships and connections, those

numbers, people will bring the numbers
to you, especially around analytics

and data engineers and all of that.

Everyone who has anything to do with
numbers, if as soon as you open up

conversations, they will bring numbers
to you and say, Hey, this, this version

that we just launched two weeks ago,
it's just improved metric a by 2%.

That's awesome.

, then you start building on that.

Yeah.

I want to talk about experimenting because
you mentioned experimenting a few times.

You also wrote a really cool
article about experiment.

Uh, which, which I did like it, and
I'm not sure whether that's going to

make sense on the audio, because there
are a couple of images in the article,

which we'll link in the show notes
for everyone else, but he made a lot

of sense to me when I could see it.

But yeah, try to explain it if you
can, because I thought I started,

Hey, here's, here's a really
interesting approach to experiment it.

We all know experimented.

We all understand what it is, but I,
I thought that the way you thought

about it was a bit more structured.

And, um, maybe, maybe we can
try to talk about it now.

See if anyone else could
find it beneficial.

David: Yeah.

Yeah.

For sure.

Sorry.

I, yeah.

The, that the colder lean
experiment map, I've kind of

simplified it to the point where.

You know, maybe if, if people, companies
don't like the idea of an experiment, then

you call it something different, right.

It's just it's map, mapping,
mapping the work that you do.

And it's something I, I kind of fell in
love with it fell in love with when I was

at borough, um, which was a startup you're
trying to build a zero to one product.

, very, very different in terms of
how you're trying to kind of get

things done, but it's very focused
on output, but also you want to see

if the products are working, right.

That's the key thing.

So if you ship, you want
to see if it's working.

So you've, you know, you, you
should be forcing the measure

of whether something that you've
shipped is, is actually working.

That's all around kind of finding
product market fit, but you can actually

apply the same thinking and kind of
measuring with, , let's say optimization.

So it's it, the approach is
very much trying to, you know,

should have a key question.

Overall that you're trying to affect,
so, or try and create the answer to,

uh, but also building out, you know,
maybe some assumptions that can help

fix the question or answer the question.

So a good example of a question, uh, might
be, you know, it was quite high level,

you know, what can we do to increase,
uh, The conversion rate of a, of an

acquisition front of just simple example.

Right.

Um, and then obviously with
that, , your mind flooded with lots

of assumptions that we could do
that we could do this, go do this.

And so, you know that that's not just
, your thoughts, it's everyone, else's

thoughts, as well as this, you know,
bringing all these ideas to the table and

trying to , frame all of those assumptions
and put them into a hypothesis.

So, you know, if we do this,
then this is going to happen.

, and you can actually, if you, if
you're on acquisition, if you want

to understand how many people are
coming through, you can see how many

people come through the funnel, and
drop off, et cetera, et cetera.

So it, by creating a kind of a hypothesis
of all of these assumptions actually

helped center the conversation.

You can then start to know how
are you going to approach, , the

problem that you're going after.

And also help design experiments
for, , that are maybe trying

to drive an expected behavior.

And, , you want to make sure
that the acquisition funnel is

going to get more people through.

, so in the experience, you may
look at the language on the page.

You may want to look at the plates
placements of the forms or shortening

for lots of different things.

, but you're trying to drive the
expected behavior, getting people to

click submit for an application form.

, and then you want to really look at once
you've got all of these hypotheses or

lots of kind of , focus areas, , start
to think about , what is a kind of an

achievable target, , because I re I
really believe by putting a commitment

on your own work, , is a really, really
important thing to do because you're

putting, you know, you really kind
of making a, make, making a stance.

This is.

I believe in, or as a team we believe in,
, and that as a commitment as a metric.

So let's say we want to create a 5%
uplift within this acquisition for them.

That 5% is worth a lot of money to
the business and not 5% helps to

open up the commercial conversations.

And , when other people will hear about
this 5%, they're like, wow, that's quite,

that's worth quite a lot to the business.

And it gets people interested.

It gets people interested,
it pulls people through.

And, and so that, that's kind of
a really, really good thing to do.

Not only that you start to build, , team
momentum, people come together because

of that one commitment we're doing this
because we really believe in this right.

Naturally, we need to think
about, , whatever it is that we

are trying to do, it's not going
to cost much for the business.

I, so it's, you know, low effort.

, because I think, that's always going
to be a thing that needs to be kind

of balanced, but also it should be
something that's not necessarily,

um, to maximum, , like time-wise, it
shouldn't take too long to achieve it.

We should be also trying to be as
efficient and , drive things through

as quickly as possible, just so
that we're able to kind of react

off the back of it very quickly.

Then once it's built, you
know, you can start to look

at the measurement of things.

So you want to make sure that
you've got event tracking in place.

Uh, you want to understand
where within the forms, there

could be potential dropout.

You want to really make sure that
you're digging into the core metrics

to just understand that if you're going
to set up a goal, for example, in an,

in a, in an analytics tool, you can
understand how the pages are kind of

converting from one page to the next
or from one field to the next day.

Depends how granular you really
want to go in terms of tracking.

Uh, but it's really important to,
to, to have that, um, from, from the

outset, because retrospective are going.

You're only going to have that point
of when you put the P when you put the

measuring in as a point of measure.

So, which is really, really important.

So you could always benchmark
as well before, right?

, before you even run the experiments.

So just having some core metrics,
which help you understand how the

improvement , can be demonstrated
is also really, really good.

, and then actually, this what's really
important is, is, is having a kind of

conversation together with teams, right?

They come together as a team , and it,
there's no point in one person just

looking at the dashboard and saying,
okay, I've had a look at the dashboard.

This is what it means.

, that's somebody else's interpretation
what's really important is being together.

Um, and, and an it interpreting
it in the room, right?

One person's interpretation
could be so different.

So your interpretation when you're looking
at the experience, and I think that

that's very important to see the results
from, , one shared perspective, because

not only that you're starting to build
the trust by just having the conversation.

Right?

So again, an open conversation, , being
transparent with how things went.

, and even if it went badly as a, as
an experiment, even if this, the

changes you made in the acquisition
funnel, um, have created drop-off.

Yeah.

Earlier on in the funnel.

Okay.

That's a really good signal.

Go back to it, fix it.

That's the next iteration of
your, of your experiment, right?

You turn one thing.

And the idea is that when you, if you
can get to the end of your learning and

you start to agree what the next steps
might be, you can then decide, okay.

There was a failure in that
last experiment that we ran.

We should probably try something new.

Let's try something new, move on
to the next experiment and have

another core focus of let's say the
language that we use might not be.

Very good.

Or you might be very clear to the user.

They need to take the next step and
that's, what's caused the drop-off

and the early stage fix that.

And then you can start to see actually
incrementally, you start getting

started to make that impact over time.

And , that's how the
journey starts, right?

You're taking people on this journey
of one, for one incremental step to

the next and to the next and all of
those small things add up, you know?

And so let's say if you run three
experiments, consecutively, small

improvements that will add up to
significant , growth impact driver, the

commercial team would look at and go over
time and go, wow, that's, that's maybe

worth, could be 2 million over two years.

Right.

But it's that it's been having been a
brain being able to take that measure

initial kind of, um, commitment that
you made in the beginning to be able

to start to open the conversation with
the commercial teams and this, this

is a transparent way of being able to.

Allow the people to follow along,
, at the same time dip in and, and

have, , almost like open meters
that people can kind of come into.

It generally just trying to keep, keep
the conversation going right , and attract

people to the work that you're doing.

, so hopefully, , slowly by slowly, you can
start to build the momentum, um, in your

teams , and help people follow along.

Christian: I find one of the
what's interesting about this

is that it's kind of a loop.

So you finished one experiment and
in that experiment, you've learned

something that you can then use as
a hypothesis in the next experiment.

And then you finished that
experiment and you use the next one.

So in this way, Maybe you'll always
have some sort of an experimental

run because there will always be
failures in smaller experiments.

You'll I mean, very rarely what you
managed to we're going to get it right.

Or we'll get it right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And

David: absolute wizard.

Christian: Right.

And, and you're, you're hiring
at the moment notes here.

So if you are just

yeah.

There will be failures and then you,
this, this framework allows you to

build upon the previous experiment.

I also think it's important as part of
that conversation with the wider team.

Sometimes you run experiments and the
result is maybe good or maybe not so good.

And then you just move on straight to the
next piece of work, rather than saying.

We've . We've spent two weeks doing this.

Let's share in the name of transparency
with everyone, what it is we're doing

here, whether it's been successful
or not, because that also helps build

trust and entrance with the trust
through transparency, I would say, and

over time, as you've said, people will
start thinking of design as a business

function, more so than a artistic
function or, Hey, look, this looks great.

Even if every once in a while you
come with a negative result from an

experiment in people's minds, you will
become more of a scientist because

you're doing experiments, right.

You'll will become someone more reliant
on numbers than subjective opinions.

David: Yeah.

And it's, it's a great way.

It's a keep the conversation centered
around, , the evidence, right?

If you can try and keep an objective
sense , in the room or the people

that you haven't conversations with.

, and so that honesty of talking
about failures also feeds into

the objective way of speaking
about the work that you're doing.

So it is, , there's always a balance
that needs to be struck between

objective being objective and subjective.

, but also you need to kind of
balance different different

people's perceptions of design.

, and you know, that your, your
opinion of design, maybe more kind

of pragmatic versus some someone's
idealistic view of, , being really

subjective and it's all around trying
to avoid all of those traps really.

, and there's, hopefully there's a
framework will really help people

move into that continuous improvement.

So , you're having these constant feedback
loops constant measures, and actually

as a, as a way to help fuel progression
in, in, in an organization, , that's

the best way to tell a story, right?

You're, you're building momentum.

The S the experiments that you're
running are failing, but you're having

more successes than failures, um, are
all good messages that, you know, as,

as a business, that they will start to
understand what really designed does to,

to the business and, and , how closely
it actually is aligned to, change, right.

You know, design design is
a real maker in a business.

Um, and I think that's super
important to recognize.

And the relationship between design and
businesses is actually much closer than

what people really feel or believe.

, because you just have to look
at it from if you're starting,

needs a lot of design to get.

Christian: One of the experiences that
I had in the past that I was thinking

about is you were talking about
transparency and connect, having a, you

know, conversations with everyone in the
team and design being a change maker.

I remember a few years ago I was
working for this company where we

would have to do testing once a month.

We would get a lot of freedom and autonomy
in how, in everything, but we had to do

testing with real users once a month.

And I remember, I don't recall what
problem it was, but there was some

sort of a small problem that we tested.

And one of the participants, I was in
the, in the room with her, and then

in the other room we'd had in the
observation room, we had the team just

watching through a camera and all of that.

And she got so frustrated.

The participant got so frustrated
for not being able to sort out

this little task that we gave
her, where she, her face got bred.

She got angry.

She got, she got visibly frustrate.

To the point where she almost
took it on me, took it out on me.

And obviously everyone else was
looking from the other room.

Anyway, D we deescalated the situation.

We said, thank you, et cetera, et cetera.

Again, I don't remember what probably
it was, but that problem was fixed.

And in production in one week,
because everyone saw this is what

design, this is, what design can do.

It can, if it can anger someone like
this in a, in a separate testing.

And, but to that level,
surely we have more customers.

We fixed that issue and
launched it straight away.

And that's something that I always think
about , whenever anyone questions or

whenever everyone's not sure about, well,
what's the value of, spending so much

money, bringing customers and testing
with them, or that's the value, not only

the fact that you find issues and all
that, but it brings the team together.

And the conversations that we had
after that experience changed.

From, or here's what's next on the
roadmap to how does this impact our users?

It was insane.

Just how much of a change, that
little experience of little Hafner

experience had on the rest of the team.

And then from that point on
developers were advocating for design.

It was, that change happened instantly.

So turning point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Turning point.

So we're running experiments with real
users where everyone, and that's the thing

involve everyone in the team, not you only
you as a designer sitting behind a screen

or in an observation room with no, no, no.

Involve everyone.

So everyone can see the impact
of the work you're doing.

And the moment people will see how
frustrating your design can get.

They'll start advocating for
better design themselves.

And that's the sweet spot right there.

100%.

So one of the things
that I mentioned, the.

Was the fact that you've
got some experience with

starting your own ventures.

You mentioned it yourself earlier,
and obviously now you worked for quite

a few companies at the high level.

So I think it will be interesting
to discuss a little bit.

How have you seen your journey as an
entrepreneur help you in your journey as

a designer, maybe even getaway around?

David: Yeah, it's it's an interesting
one to, to reflect on, to be honest,

I think, , I think , having to
start your own, business really.

You know, and it, for me, it was, it
was all around trying to put all of my

skills, interests together into one thing.

, I was really seeking something to go
after, , but also really seeking.

It wasn't necessarily
a sense of ownership.

, it was a sense of, okay,
where am I in my, in my life.

, and where I'm, where am I in my career?

Because I've had such a very career,
I, I wanted to give myself a sense of

purpose and that that's kind of why
I ended up tackling, yeah, all of

those curiosities in, in, in one reel.

And it, it helped balance that
the craving that I kind of had.

But I also think they, so as you start to
venture in and you start to try things,

you try to, , try to kind of connect
with your own beliefs that, you know,

you do have to be quite pragmatic in a
sense, because if it's your own money,

you know, , if you're fortunate to be,
it could be well-funded and you'll still

have to take quite a pragmatic view.

, and you have to be really
responsible in terms of how you

you're spending that money, right.

To be able to grow the business, or
even kind of operate, , at a level

that's, you know, cost-effective right.

So, yeah, I think you've got to
take a real pragmatic view, , and

always double-check with it with
their own subjective views and

actually go, they do like really, , I
might be in, am I taking this?

Am I looking at this from the right angle?

, and kind of always questioning
yourself, you know, I think

you, you've got to always.

Because to be quite self-critical
in a way, but to the point where

it isn't paralyzing, so hopefully
they've been more pragmatic.

, actually probably brings the best out in
design to be honest, I think, you know,

for forcing that critical thought, just
to think about a change here, um, may, may

create a bit of, uh, an uplift, , or maybe
the change change over here might time

and, and, reduce the, the amount of spend
that your, that you're literally spending.

, so it kind of is that critical
way of looking at things that I

think is, is extremely important.

, less maybe , from the design perspective,
a designer going into entrepreneurship

or, you know, I think you can definitely,
as a designer, you know, you can,

you can start something if, and
you're quite confident in everyone's

skill sets to be able to do that.

And I think that's why, you know, we do
have some sort of successful designer,

founders out there., but I also think that
when you're being kind of quite pragmatic,

you have to start thinking about, the
longer term path of, how are you gonna,

, create value , for your end users?

You know, you really start to
think about, what is the, what

is that lifetime value that you're
trying to, to, to kind of create?

Like what, what, you know, how much, how
much money are you able to, , generate

from your product , over that lifespan?

Right.

So looking at, okay, , you D we
need to make money as a business.

, And I think that, you know, that you, you
know, you can't just survive otherwise.

, so you need to think about, you
know, what is the revenue that

you're going to be able to generate
from, from those, from those users.

And, , that's a balance of,
okay, there, they will pay for

the value that you give them.

But, you know, generally, , over the
lifespan, how much revenue are going

to be able to generate, but then also
looking at, you know, the, that kind of

lifespan, how long is the customer going
to stay around and use your product and

not switch to somebody else's product?

How can you make that customer stake?

So looking at that lifetime value
overall is a really, really important

metric because then you can start,
it brings designs far closer

to, , the world of business, , which
helps you really understand that.

The things you can do as a designer to
be able to, , make your product stick

around, , and give it the longevity that
you've probably always wished it had.

, but you know, , you know, I
think that's the thing, right?

If you, if you're, if you can balance
out the commercial like that, if you

do have, if you have the funding, , but
you understand how the business side

of things, what you could re you could
really be quite pointed in sense of how

you approach things as the designer.

But that pragmatic side helps
you generate the growth of role.

And not only that, you know, if you
can get towards the vision great.

, but sometimes you, don't always
you will start with a smaller

vision, which will become grander
and grander and grander over time.

And, as with products,
that's with people we change.

, and I think, you know, our
ambition has changed as well.

So it's important to explain
that journey, I think, overall of

entrepreneurship and how you want to grow,

Christian: see this hasn't been planned.

I promise to everyone listening, but this
has played so well into the point that I

wanted to make , your answer right there.

Because to me, listening to you talk, now
you didn't really talk like a designer.

You talk like someone who cared
about the business because.

Cause he wasted business.

Right.

David: But it's because that
was the intention, you know, to

start something from scratch.

Right.

Christian: So, I find that people
who have tried in the past to start

something up, whether they've succeeded
or not, that's less important, but

it teaches you all those important
aspects of being a designer.

But without realizing, because,
because to me being a designer is

more aligned with, or more similar to
being a business person than it is to

being an artists or, or anything else.

So to me now, a lot of the stuff
that you just said makes so much

sense as a designer because we
have to do that on a daily basis.

David: Yeah.

An art is art is a business, you
can never be a successful artist.

If you, if you don't know
the business aspect of it.

Just a little point there.

Ooh,

Christian: that's depends who you asking?

I guess not.

I mean, I agree with you, but I
guess there will be some reviews

for artists somewhere in, in
some sort of corner of Paris that

will probably disagree with you.

But yes, I see my trend.

That is very true.

So , moving on from entrepreneurship
to a discussion that I, the reason

I like to ask this question is
because it really brings different

perspectives from different people.

There's no right or wrong answer
here, but I want to talk about hiring

designers, but more from the perspective
of not so much from a perspective of,

of someone who hires, but more from the
perspective of someone who tries to get.

How do you, especially when you're early
on in your career, maybe don't have

a lot of projects on your portfolio.

You don't, you haven't got
that experience just yet.

You haven't been through
a lot of interviews.

The market is crazy right now
for senior people, but for junior

people, not so much, how do you break
through, how do you get those, the

hardest job to get as the first one?

Right.

So how do you increase
your chances to succeed?

Yeah.

So I think you find, you
find a lot of portfolios.

they talk, they talk about a process,
but, and, and, and that's all good.

That's great.

That's a great way of achieving the things
that you, you know, you set out, but I

think what's more important to me is the
decision that you made in that process.

So for me, a designer that stands out
is quite clear on, okay, we took this

process because actually helped us
make this decision off the end of it.

Or let's say did this process and going
back to the honesty and transparency,

the thing we tried didn't work.

So we ended up pivoting and
going into a different direction.

Those are all really
interesting decision points.

, and they're really, they're really
help kind of, as, as let's say, you're

viewing the portfolio, reading through
it really helps you understand the

mindset of the person, , and how they're
able to really have a clear narrative.

, to, to their work.

, it's not, as, , it's superficial,
it's more grounded and I think

that's really important, for
anybody kind of getting into design.

I think that's, you know, that's very
much from a junior perspective all the

way up to, , the senior senior level.

But I think there's definitely
things that if you're trying to break

into the industry, you could even
try, maybe redesigning a product,

but you need to tackle it from the
point of view that actually there

was a problem that you identified.

And you were making certain decisions to
try and improve because you're trying to

fix, something that you noticed as just as
an observation from an existing product.

I think that's a good case studies like
that help you break into, , the industry.

For sure.

I think that's really, really
good technique, but I think also.

I think so we'd spoke about vision,
having a clear vision, , and, but

clear steps on how to get there.

The small things that you did to
help you realize a vision over time.

, and if you don't necessarily have
that experience again, going back

to the, kind of the, the kind of
using a case study is also a really,

really good place to start in terms
of how you can explain the decisions

you make in design to help create an
impact, , for the product overall.

, but also I think the other thing
that's probably quite important and

quite probably harder to recognize is
systems thinking, , and connecting dots.

I think that's a really
hard skill to identify.

, but you, you do see that in people
that really look at, , Kind of a

task focused way , of working, or
even jobs to be done as a framework.

If you've not heard of that, then that's
a really good way to try and craft

your thinking into task driven work.

But also I think obviously naturally
the craft is super important, right?

You can't ever forget it, but I think what
I, what really interests me more so than

the craft is having everybody can have
exceptional craft to the point where, you

know, if they're in an, in an interview,
if they've been successful enough

with their craft to get the interview.

But I think the, the most important
underlying messages are, or,

definitely the decision-making right.

It's having taking small steps.

Big steps because the impact of taking a
big step in a team or a big change means

it's either going to take more time.

And if the product is going to
look at it, they're looking at it

from a practical view of saying
it's going to cost more money.

, because it's going to take more energy
to do it, and there are more efforts.

So , it's someone that's able to
understand that making small changes

will add up to , a bigger change overall.

And I think that that kind of slow,
patient approach to, to, to design

that really helps me understand
that the mindset where they come

from and where they are in the,
in their stage of their career.

, I think people that have
shipped stuff as well, right.

It's it's you want, you want people
that have actually done the work?

Um, I mean harder if you're
starting out in the industry.

, but I think it took another
way to counter that is someone

that's been quite self-starter.

So it was quite self-sufficient.

, and has just got something out there,
even, even if it just be a portfolio

website portfolio, someone that just
an approach to actually shipping

something, just you, you know, that
something can be delivered, which is,

you know, at the end of the day, one of
the key things that we need to do, if

we're going to show an impact, we need
to show the work that we've shipped.

, so yes, a number of quite a number
of things really stand out for me.

And so talking about standing up,
when you get to an interview, how

do you put your best foot forward?

, what impresses you as someone who's
hiring, someone comes in at whatever

level, and then they do something that
really impressed you, or that stuck

with you at a, you remember years
later or any stories of that kind?

,
David: I think Pete people that,
um, people that are quite self.

I think is, is super important.

, because, if you're self aware,
just you, you know, you can

have an honest conversation with
somebody, um, at some point, right?

It makes it makes it if someone
that's more self-aware is more,

more likely to have a better fit
, within an organization or a team.

Then they know that, maybe , certain
ways you behave in not the right

way to behave, because it will
generate conflict and conflict.

Isn't just a good, it's
not a good thing to have.

Right.

, for everybody.

And so I think generally it's something
that is really, really, self-aware,

it's just super, super, super important.

But someone who's really got
a very clear opinion of what,

of what they're looking for.

When you're interviewing , it's
a two way street, right?

Don't if you want something in
particular and it's, you're not

going to get that from this role,
because it's just not the right shape.

It's not the right kind of work that
interests you be honest because there

could be something else within the, the
company that you're working for, or there

could be a role that is just a better
fit for your skillset and your interests.

I think that that's, what's really
important is, is finding something

that's going to work well for both,
um, is, is when the kind of the magic

starts to happen , in companies, right?

That's because everyone's aligned,
everyone knows exactly what they

want and that, and, and that's
where you're going to get really

excited about the work that you do.

So I think that's probably
some things that are.

Look for, is it is to start honest.

There's someone that you can say,
well, I'm not quite sure that

this is the right thing for me.

, cause that only will
prompt , another conversation.

Oh yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I can see your perspective.

, maybe I can go away and have a
conversation with somebody else and see

if there's a benefit somewhere else.

, one thing leads to the next and I
think just taking that open-minded

approach is actually quite, quite
a good approach to take in general.

Yeah.

Christian: I also think that what ends up
happening naturally when you say yes to

a role that wasn't really right for you
in the first place is one of two things.

Either.

You're going to be staying there
for awhile and be miserable.

That's not going to help you resolve.

Yeah, exactly.

You're not getting any better
anytime soon or you're gonna join

and leave six months in which.

So no benefit to you to
no benefit to the company.

You can't really say you wasted your
time, but, but in a way you could have

been in a place that was better for you.

Right?

So in a way, yeah, you have wasted
, some time by being in the wrong place.

So I, I have been through that myself
saying yes to the wrong roles , and I can

guarantee that, it's no path to happiness.

David: No, I think we've
all, we've all been there.

We've all been there.

I think it, you know, you need to find,
you need to make those mistakes to find

out who you are, what interest you're in.

So, yeah.

So what I think,

Christian: I think this
is very interesting.

You've made that mistake.

I've made that mistake.

I think a lot of people
have made that mistakes.

How would you approach that search
now, knowing what makes you tick and

what types of role you would enjoy
versus how we will do it for you?

David: Yeah.

The way I've approached it, how
I found myself at Shopify, I've

found myself, um, naturally just
quite attracted to commercial.

, and you know, I hadn't worked in the
mortgage lending sector and credit cards.

, I re I realized that I really
enjoy commercial companies.

Quite proud to say that, in a
strange way, because for me, that's

what I get really excited about.

Um, and also it helps me really
apply, , the thought process of

putting impact against, , a measure
, and, you know, really starting

to connect design to business.

And, and, and you've got a, you know,
all of the commercial aspects around,

around that space, which for me, you
know, It's a, it's a dreamy place.

It's such a crazy place to be.

Right.

Because there's so much things
that you can do as it is.

It's just trying to figure out
the right thing at the right time,

I think, because timing's really
important to things as well.

And so for me, I found myself gravitating
more to work towards that, but I think

again, that's through experience, right?

You have to be able to find yourself the
things that you you're interested in.

, the sector that really makes you,
you happy, , is super important.

And I say happy in a sense that I'm in.

You know, you, you have to
get something back from it.

, so that, you know, sometimes it's
going to really get you out of bed.

You know, you've got to stay true
to yourself and, and know the work

that you're doing is, is having an
impact or create value somewhere.

, what that value means, whether it
be for a customer or whether it'd

be for a business, is something that
you, I think you really need to dig

into, and you will, at some point
early on in your career, get that job.

You thought about why did I take this job?

Um, do you may not, but there's
always a reason why you switched

from one job to the next.

And I think it's all around trying to
find, , that, that thing that you crave.

And I'd like to think at some point, I
would love to start another business,

um, to gov the amount of ideas that flood
your brain or my brain, um, constantly,

is something that I really, yeah, I
cherish that, but I also tried to.

Lea level that off, because I
think having that constantly

is a bit of a dangerous curse.

Right.

Christian: It's all about balance.

Isn't it?

David: It's a balance.

Yeah.

It's a balance.

Yeah.

Christian: All right, David, I
had two more questions for you.

The ones that I ask everyone
at the end of the show.

So, uh, the first one is what
is one soft skill that you wish

more designers would possess?

David: Um, a soft skill.

I think it will very much just, , being
able to ask us very, very open questions.

Um,

Christian: I thought you were
going to say self-awareness

David: so self-awareness is always going.

We covered that one.

Um, but yeah, I think just, just generally
how to start a conversation, just to ask a

question, , I think more often than not, I
have seen there's some designers starting

companies and they stay quite quiet.

And you do, you should be,
feel, feel quite comfortable.

I feel quite open enough to be
able to just ask any question.

And so that's what I generally try to do.

I really encouraged that aspect , of
people, make a list of questions.

If you don't know how to even
approach it, just list out some

questions and you can use that as a,
as a nice kind of guiding path for

you to just start the conversation.

And just at least have
one question, right.

Um, to be able to start,
start conversations.

, cool.

Christian: So ask more questions.

That's that's the sort of questions
the other one is what's one

piece of advice that has changed
your career for the better.

David: Um, great.

I think for me, I think the
best advice I've had is to.

The people that you're having
conversations with is really

understand, , the things they're
trying to achieve and how you can help.

, so really, really, when
you're talking about forming

alliances, really, really yeah.

Ask the questions, but I find the
opportunities to be able to help something

create a stronger trust overall in a team.

, , for me, it's, it's an
excellent way to operate.

, it helps you, , form a , very.

Kind of bond and build that trust
from the very, very beginning.

, and hopefully you'll be able to,
you'll become a go-to person.

I think that's the thing, the more
you help, the more of a go-to person

you become, the more you become.

And generally that's how you will start
to have more of an impact in, in, in

your role and feel a little bit more
rewarded and, you no one's going to

come running to you straight away when
you're, when you're new in a company,

people are going to be more curious
about you and kind of maybe a little bit

hesitant, but, you know, don't, , remove
that hesitancy or, you know, how it start

those conversations in an open way, and
people will naturally start coming to you.

And I think that's kind of
a great way to live life.

Christian: Uh, that's also
a great way to end the show.

I think that was the, it was
pretty good, David, , any last

doors, where can people find you?

Where can they get in touch with you?

David: Yeah, well, hit me up on LinkedIn.

, for some reason I find it, that's my home.

I love following links and it's crazy.

] , yeah, so, you know, if he wants to
connect on LinkedIn, let's, let's

have a chat a bit good to get to
chat, see where, see what's happening

in your life and in your career.

, love having conversations
get to do lights connects.

, and if anyone's interested, , in looking
for a career change or looking for that

next step to reach out and send me.

Christian: All right.

We're going to put all of that
in the show notes so people

can easily find you, David.

This has been a massive pleasure.

Thanks so much , for being
a guest, on the show.

And, um, we will, uh, be in touch.

We'll speak soon,

David: super stuff.

Thank you so much for
having me, Christian.

That's a wrap for today.

I hope you found this episode useful and
that you've learned something that you

were ready to implement at work tomorrow.

If you've enjoyed this as always,
it would mean the world to me.

If you'd share it with your
community, if you'd leave a review.

And of course, if you'd remember
to tune in for the next one, peace.