Design Meets Business

Christian: Welcome to design meets
business, a show where design leaders talk

about practical ways to quantify design
about making our work more transparent,

and about how designers can make a
bigger impact in their organization.

I'm your host, Christian Vasile,
and before we begin, I'd like to

thank you for tuning in today.

Today, I'm chatting with Megan Dell,
Director of Design at 99designs.

It's a good conversation about the work
she is doing behind the scenes as a

design leader, the challenges of creating
products for a global audience and how

her fitness journey has helped her career.

Megan.

Thank you so much for being part of
the design meets business journey.

You are a director of
design at 99 designs.

A household name in the design
world has been for many years.

So I'm looking forward to today's
chat, uh, before we begin, just so

everyone knows who we're talking to.

Can you give us a bit of a, an
introduction, how you ended up

becoming a designer and how was
that journey that you've been on?

Megan: Yeah, absolutely.

And hi everyone.

And thanks for having me.

Um, look, to be honest, I studied
graphic arts and I always wanted

to be a designer, but I could never
get a job as a graphic designer.

And so after getting so many rejections,
I ended up applying for a role in call

center thinking that I would just take
that for six months and, um, actually,

uh, found my way through the company,
uh, into replying to customer emails.

And then.

I'm doing some work on the website.

This is about 20 years ago.

So no one cared about the internet and
kind of found myself doing user experience

design without even knowing it and kind
of stumbled into it through that way.

And over the course of the years have kind
of carved a bit more of a career through

that journey, worked in agencies, focusing
on mobile apps and things like that.

Um, well, do I sorry to yeah.

Where I am today, uh, at 99 designs and
I've been here for the last six years.

Christian: Yeah, that's quite a
while in, in today's tech world.

Let's call it.

Everyone just jumps after
a year or two though.

They,

Megan: I know, I thought two years was
my limit, but 99 has, um, yeah, always

like provide me with lots of really good
challenges and learning opportunities.

So yeah, six years later.

Christian: Yeah, well, I guess
that's what it's all about, right?

It's just, if you're not feeling
challenged or if you don't feel that

you've got, if you don't feel like you're
growing, then you're much more likely

to jump, ship and go somewhere else.

So, um it had been a piece
of advice for employers.

If people are leaving too often and
try this, if you haven't tried it yet.

Megan: Oh, I was just going to
say in this design, this was

such a curious bunch as well.

Right.

So you got to kind of keep that
you can't have people get bored

and feel as though they just can
either too comfy in their roles.

So yeah, if you want to keep
them, keep them learning.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Christian: For sure.

How have you found that transition
from customer support, answering

emails and all that to actually.

Doing the work of a designer.

How was that for you?

Megan: Oh, well, because I, , because
I had studied design and I was

also working, um, in my own time
as quite an active artist as well.

So I was always doing creative work.

Um, It just felt really nice to be able
to take the learnings that I had had

from speaking with our customers on the
phone, and then later answering their

emails and then trying to solve some
of those problems through the interface

and understanding like the needs that
they had from my first, um, firsthand

experience being in customer support.

So it was very different to go
into more of a design kind of role.

It was definitely a gradual transition,
but it prepared me so well with that,

uh, solid foundational knowledge of who
the customers are from kind of spending.

A long time talking to them
directly in customer support.

Christian: Yeah, I can
imagine that was a w.

When you have the polls, the finger on
the polls, isn't that what it's called

when, uh, when you, you know, you talk to
customers at all times and you get into

that mindset and you build that empathy
for whatever it is they're going through

on a daily basis, then you're also much
more motivated to solve those problems.

In whichever other role you are,
whether you're a designer or a even

developer, sometimes I've I've had
in the past, developers brought

into usability testing sessions.

And as soon as they've seen
what was going on, They became

advocates for better design.

You wouldn't think that, right.

So I'm sure having the finger on the
polls has helped quite a lot since then.

How have you seen, well, first of all,
your role as a designer and later on

as a design leader, but also the role
of a designer in general, you know, if

you've been around for 20 odd years, how
have you seen that change and evolve?

Megan: Oh, That's a really good question.

I feel as though I'm also my expectations
and understanding has changed

quite a bit over that time as well.

And I think that that's through the
experience that I've gathered and

just general kind of maturity and
a life of my working life as well.

I guess when I go back to the early
days of my career, Compared with

now, I certainly said design so much
more as a role where facilitation

is just so important and it's, uh,
bringing others along the journey,

uh, your communication skills as well.

So not only your visual communication
skills, but also able to kind of talk

about your design rationale or perhaps,
uh, explain in various different ways,

the problems that you're trying to solve
with your design to your colleagues as

well, and get them on board with why this
is an important problem to solve too.

So I think.

Uh, it's kind of changed for
me and I've got more of a

well-rounded understanding of it.

I don't know if this is so much
change throughout the gears

fundamentally, uh, for everybody, but
certainly my perception has evolved

Christian: for sure.

Aspects of design that I've noticed
has evolved, not even in the past

20 years, maybe in the past 10, is
that we're having more conversations

around the importance of design when
it comes to affecting the bottom line.

Right?

Tricks design is just
a driver for, for what.

The business needs to be done
more so than what it used to

be in the beginning, I guess.

Just, can you put some CSS on it says
on this HTML to make it look nice.

So I would assume, and please correct
me if I'm wrong, that on a daily basis

for you, that is a very big part of
what you're, you know, empowering

your design team to do what you
maybe do at the high level as well.

All these talk.

How design affects the business affects.

Can it be a positive, not
only unnecessarily negative.

So is that, is that, am
I correct in assuming.

Megan: Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that there's also something
really special that people with the

design skillset and I guess the,
the way that our brains can kind of

be programmed to solve problems and
look to simplify things as well.

We can help with some pretty gnarly
business problems too and that's just

through our design thinking and our
human centered design approach which

is very different to, well, certainly
at my level, like very different to

my peers who could be like the head of
marketing, head of finance, et cetera.

Um, so it's a very important skillset
as well to have kind of in their

senior business conversations.

Christian: How do you empower your
teams to do that on a daily basis?

Because again, design, historically
speaking hasn't necessarily

been thought of as a business
function, but it is today.

So whenever someone joins your
team or whenever someone is

already there and has to deal with.

Business problems and
solve them through design.

How are you there to support them?

Megan: Um, look, I would try to help
remove any blockers that they may have.

Of course, I feel like that might
be a pretty standard answer, but

it's also helping them understand
the work that they're doing and how

that fits in with our company goals.

why that's important, how strategically
that kind of helps our business.

And of course, uh,
importantly, the end users.

So for us at 99, it's both our
designer community and the clients.

And so like helping them
connect the dots to,

Christian: And I would assume
again, that's at the level you're

at, you're also doing a lot of work
that is not really visible per se.

First of all, you're not
pushing pixels anymore.

You're sitting in meetings
sometimes you're evangelizing for

design, maybe you're as you said,
you're trying to remove blockers.

So I know that running a design
organization consists mostly or heavily

of work that no one really sees.

Can you talk a bit about that and
how you found that transition from.

pushing pixels to having to

Megan: do that.

Oh yeah.

I so much like we do a weekly
stand up in the design team.

I mean, asynchronous to service
slack, and sometimes I think why

don't, what can I write here?

Like, because so much of the stuff that
I do is sort of behind the scenes it's in

meetings, stuff like that but, uh, yeah.

Sorry.

So what was the question?

The transition

Christian: was that.

Tell us about all that work that
you have to do behind the scenes.

That's the challenges of that?

Megan: Yeah.

Well, first of all, it's
getting your head around.

Yeah.

This is also work it's like, especially
as you change roles as a designer

and as you kind of move into more
leadership and management roles, that's

the understanding that while I may
not be in Figma all day, I'm still

actually doing work that's legit.

And that could even be meeting someone
for a coffee because perhaps I'm trying

to network with them because maybe I want
to hire them in the future or understand

how they run their team and all of that.

So it's a reframing of.

Is what is work, uh, in a different role
and a lot of the things that I'm doing,

I'm looking at hiring a design ops person.

A lot of the stuff that I do
is a lot of design ops things,

thinking around our teams, uh,
progression in that career ladder.

We're rolling out and
your review process soon.

So I'm already kind of looking
at everybody in a spreadsheet and

ensuring, um, Like that we are
looking at everybody's salaries fairly

and have the right classification
for people, whether they're a mid

wage, a senior, a lead product
designer, UX researcher, et cetera.

So kind of like a lot of the
maintenance around running the.

Also looking at all of our team
rituals and looking to revisit,

and re-energize them just today,
we met through our engagement

survey results as a design team.

So I collated all of that information,
prepared the slide deck, and

then walk the team through that.

Um, and so on.

So these are all kind of more
like opposite as many types of.

That I'm doing, but then also within
the senior leadership team, I'm there to

represent design and really be an advocate
for the people that we're designing for.

So our clients and designers at
the most senior level conversations

within the company and bringing the
perspective from those end users

into those conversations as well.

And trying to ensure that my peers
within the senior leadership team

actually understand truly what some of
the core pain points of our end-users.

And that we're accounting for that,
like, you know, quarterly product

planning and things like that to,

Christian: yeah.

Probably working for 99 designs
is very different because it is a

design led company in a way, because
it's mission is it's designed, uh,

evangelize design, if you will.

But, um, I have a.

An experience working in a
company that's less design led

much less than not even tech led.

It's just very, very old fashioned.

And in that case, I found our director
of design to be so important for us

kind of on the ground, because he would
be there taking all these battles.

And allowing us to do the work
that we're do because he would

kind of shield us from it.

And whenever we would go into these
meetings with senior stakeholders, he'd

be there with us to kind of support.

And, and he just knew how to
frame design in much better

way than any of us ever could.

So he was such a fundamental part
of us being able to do great work.

Because he was the translator translator
of design for the business people.

So, um, maybe for you, it's that
part of the job is not that necessary

there, but I assume in other
organizations, um, it very much is,

Megan: oh yeah.

I mean, it still does come about as well.

One of the.

Conversations that I feel like I'm
always having is, uh, so we've got

a team, uh, Kodak delivery systems
team, and, um, that's also where

our design system work is housed.

And I do feel as though I'm constantly
having conversations about why we have

to have two designers within that team
and kind of translating the work that

they do into the same realms as well.

It's just as important for
us to be focusing on our own.

Tooling for our design system,
as it is for an engineer to be

working on a tooling for their
engineering counterparts as well.

So of course, we're going to have
more than one designer thinking

about our design system, right?

So it's like a bit of translation
in that kind of regard as well.

Then I'm doing,

Christian: for sure.

You mentioned earlier, you
working asynchronously in your.

Megan: Uh, yeah.

Trying

Christian: to, yeah.

Trying to, how are you finding that?

How are you finding working
with designers generally with

product teams, asynchronously?

Because that's a relatively
new way of working.

Megan: Yeah.

We've been trying to
do an organizationally.

For a little while and now it's
certainly not strictly asynchronously.

Um, and so for instance, we've just had a
meeting today with the entire design team

and that was so we could also have like a
bit more of, uh, in-person interactions.

Um, it has been really challenging though.

And one of the things that we need
to get better at is the discipline

of just trying to view calendars
in a slightly different way.

So if someone has some free time
in their calendar doing the air

quotes, uh, so to speak it's not
really an opportunity for them to

just be ready and available for me.

Like, we need to respect giving
people that time to kind of do their

work, have focused time, as well
as, you know, watch whatever loom

video someone's recorded, read the
document or write the thing as well.

It's still like definitely a work in
progress and it's been a hard kind

of transition for us, but I think
something that I'm really keen to

continue to work on improving because.

I just think we can't go back
to the old way of working.

We're definitely not going back to
being into the in the office from nine

to five or whatever your hours may be.

So it's all changed.

Christian: What we're doing at uptime is
we have, because we're also in a way where

all at the same time zone, but I'm not.

So I'm kind of very far
away from everyone else.

So what we're doing is
that we have meetings.

We have a block from meetings in
morning, UK time, which is kind of.

Late afternoon for me.

And then anything around that,
they get their time to actually

do work to the focus time as
we call it in their afternoon.

So UK afternoon time.

In in my time, in the morning.

So, so it's having that time to say
this is when we usually meet and if you

have meetings, put them roughly in this
block of 3, 4 hours here and everything

around that is is more your time to work.

And we're finding that to be such a good
way of working because it allows creative

people to have focused time to do creative
work, which I remember in the office was

always such a challenge because if someone
wants 10 minutes of you then there's

lunch, then someone's leaving early.

So they need to have a meeting
with you now or all of that.

You would never get.

I don't, I don't even remember how
it would get work done in the office.

Yeah.

Either.

It's like, I'm a very, uh,
easily distracted person as well,

and a very visual person too.

So I don't know how, as they
concentrate at a desk with people

around me in the office back then,

Yeah.

Well, I'm certainly
not going back to that.

I know a lot of people want to,
but I don't, I'm not one of them.

I'm happy the way it is right now.

You've been with 99 designs for six years.

You said, and that's quite a while.

And I also know that in the past
six years, there's been quite a

lot happening for the company and
acquisition in this period as well.

Not only just day-to-day work, but
I can assume that an acquisition.

Is a big deal.

So how have you seen design help
throughout these many years that

you've been there, help the company.

Megan: Yeah.

I mean, it's, it has been a full long
journey over these past six years design.

Um, one of the things that we've done
within the design team that has been

such a game changer was introduced a
dedicated UX researcher into the team.

And so I hired our first researcher,
um, a little over two years ago.

And having, even though.

Design team back then.

So we were about maybe five or six
people,, at that so it felt like

the designer to research a ratio was
probably a little bit luxurious, but,

uh hiring a dedicated researcher just
really helped us as a company where we

want to be very close to the end user.

We all work at 99 designs because
we really want to make life

better for designers around the
world who using our platform.

And it just made somebody.

Full time job.

I actually able to help, um, bring
people closer to our end-users and

organizationally, that was huge because
it meant that we were doing like

regular interviews with our clients and
designers were able to bring in their

conversations into many more strategic
company conversations and also just have

more of a dedicated research practice and
prioritize that heaps more than we ever

did in the past, because prior to hiring
a dedicated UX researcher, it was the UX

designer who was expected to kind of fit
that in amongst everything else as well.

So sometimes they would like
skimp on that a little bit to.

The priorities and timelines
and all that kind of stuff.

And these days we have a research
team of research manager.

We've got four UX researchers and
a research ops person as well.

So we've been able to really up the
ante on that because it's been such a

huge benefit for us organizationally.

So that's kind of helped, um
The underlying thing is, uh,

it's actually bringing some real
data to our design work as well.

And so it is qualitative
information, but it is actually

factual information as well.

We've spoken to all of these people,
they find this really difficult to use.

We should do something about it rather
than just a designer saying, Hey, I think

that usability on this is a bit crap,

Christian: right?

Yeah.

Since you have so many researches,
I would assume you have a monthly,

weekly by weekly cadence of talking
to users, or does it happen more on

an ad hoc basis whenever it's needed?

How does that work?

Megan: Um, so we have researchers
work with all of the different

projects that are ongoing, and we
also hire designers who have skills

in research in their own right.

But what we've been doing is our
product management team are also

fantastic when it comes to wanting
to get out of the building, so to

speak and to talk to our end users.

And so they have really helped champion
a continuous discovery process.

And so what that means is every single
week we are having conversations with

clients and designers and getting to
understand about what makes them tick.

What's working well, what's not working
well and so on with our platform.

And so this is.

Every single week without fail
across our four different groups.

So we've got 12 different teams.

They're all getting that
exposure, which is really awesome.

Christian: Yeah.

How does, if, if you're doing this
every single week for every single team,

there must be such a massive challenge.

Collating all that data and
doing something with it because

by the time you're trying to act
on something, the next cycle the

next week is, is here already.

So how does your team taking all
of that customer information and do

something with it in a meaningful way?

Yeah,

Megan: that is a challenge as well.

So the team, um, Like whoever it is.

So we rotate, who's meeting the
people who's taking, uh, who's

the note-taker as well, but they
are kind of blogging about this.

We use confluence as our
central like organizational hub

for all of this info as well.

So they're posting a link to the
recording, any salient points they're

kind of putting in there in confluence,
but then we also use a research

repository tool, so where we're
uploading all of the recordings and

then we're actually taking them to so
we can do a lot of secondary research.

So if we actually
thought, Hey, we want to.

I don't understand this
particular part of the experience.

We can go into, um, our research
repository tool and then search

for those particular keywords.

So it could be like the brief crafting
experience from client's perspective.

And then we can find all
those snippets as well.

So we're kind of doing it.

It's not perfect, but we're doing
it in a way that is kind of thinking

about, Hey, this is a massive
information that we're getting.

How can we make it more accessible
for anyone, uh, in the future within.

Christian: Uh, what's that, uh,
repository you're talking about.

That's

Megan: very useful, uh, at the
moment we're using a dovetail,

but that may be changing.

Yeah,

Christian: right?

Yeah.

I've heard about dovetail.

At uptime we're using.

Notion for everything.

And I, I personally find it to
be well it's one of those tools.

That's good for everything, but
not great at anything in a way.

I think a research proposed
story would be really.

Yeah, you've just reminded me of something
very important that I have to do later on.

Megan: Yeah.

We've been using dovetail for awhile.

Um, we may be looking at a different
tool where we can like put in

other bits of information as well.

So we use Zendesk for all of our
customer support and designer support

calls, and correspondence, and a
tool like enjoy H Q, um, can kind

of pull it all into the one spot.

So that's where we're probably.

Christian: How does the rest of your
product team fit into this research?

Because I get it designers and
researchers, there is their

job, but you know, developers,
product manager, testers.

Are they involved in

Megan: any way?

Yeah.

So the product managers are the ones
who have really been, um, helping

spearhead this continuous discussions.

Approach, uh, which is really awesome
and a breath of fresh air as well.

So there's that from the product
management side, but then also, because

we do have so many opportunities
to attend an interview with a

client or a designer, we'll do some
other kind of research session.

We really do approach it as a team
sport and put the requests out there.

Hey, tomorrow morning at 8:30 AM.

There's this particular thing happening?

Can anyone join us?

The note taker?

Try to, um, give as many opportunities
to a diverse set of people, throw

out the team and try to make it so
that everybody actually has that

opportunity within the different squad.

So our engineers very much involved
and sometimes like in the past,

there has been a little bit of
resistance from some people, but then.

My personal experiences, even if
I drag that person along and sort

of make them come along as a note
taker to sit in on that session.

After that, they're just a change person.

They always want to go to these sessions.

They're just like, oh my God,
I didn't want to come along.

But that was so awesome.

And I think it's seeing someone actually
interact with, or talk about the thing

that you built that is just such a
great feeling for like developers as

well as of course, the rest of us too.

Christian: For sure.

Yeah.

It's I was saying it earlier I've
had experience in the past with

the whole product team had to,
had to take a day off every week.

Not, not a day off, they all, from their
work to be in the observation room.

And then I would typically be in the in
the room with the the customer and the.

Their attitude changed so fast towards
the work we were doing to the point

where I remember times when we were
sitting in, in planning meetings and

they would come up with something
that I may be totally even forgot.

It's like, oh, but you
remember when this happened?

I think we should prioritize
this issue over this other one.

And I thought this well, first of
all, this makes my job easier because

I don't need to talk about design
and the customer all the time.

They are, they they get it.

But second of all, I think the moment
you build enough, trust that with your

team and the moment they see the value
of the work you're doing, they will,

are more likely to trust your gut
feeling or trust your your intentions.

Or if you say, Hey, I think we
should do this because X and Y.

They're more likely to say, yeah,
I see where you're coming from.

Let's do that rather than always
having to have these battles

and what do we prioritize next?

Then?

What's more important
is this, and it is that.

So I found that bringing the
product team to testing sessions.

It was a very useful
way of building trust.

And honestly, I thought of it as a team
building exercise, it really brings a

team together around one common goal.

So but with that being said and
where I'm actually going with

this is it takes such a long time.

To convince everyone to participate.

Because as a developer, as an engineer,
I just want to write code that's my job.

I don't care about that.

So you have to convince them somehow
to come to the sessions and then that's

it, the sessions sell themselves.

Right.

But how do you convince people whose
job is not to talk to the customer

to participate in the sessions?

Megan: It's a really good question.

I feel as though, I mean, people talk
and so once you've got one person

who's come along to one as well, they
can then talk about, we will always

run like every different product
development squad that we have.

They're running a retro
every two weeks as well.

So for sure, that's going to
come up as a highlight as well.

Went along to this interview.

It was awesome in different
conversations as well.

Like that was such a spread and
people might be getting, hang on.

Like, why did so-and-so
go to that interview?

They're raving about it.

I want some of that as well.

I'm kind of curious about that,
but I also know that, um, like

my peers really value that too.

And so it's coming from the top as, Hey,
it's really important for us to talk to

the people who are using our products.

Like the people that were actually in
jobs like to serve and that sentiment is

shared from my engineering counterpart.

So the leaders of the engineering
organization will always be encouraging

the engineering managers to be in those
conversations and to meet with end users

as well as then their team members too.

So it does kind of ripple throughout the
organization as well, but it can be tough.

Like I remember way back when,
when I was doing this in a

previous job and I was doing.

Like contextual inquiry
without, and Jesus.

When I was going to visit bookkeepers
on a weekly basis, it felt like I

had to bring some engineers along
with me kicking and screaming.

But like I would kind of talk to
them about, Hey, no, it's like,

we'll go for a coffee afterwards.

It's totally fine.

You don't need to do anything.

Just come along.

Like let's check out their environment
and have a conversation with them.

And.

I was able to kind of bring them along,
but going back to what you were saying

earlier as well, this is like the part
of design where it's like, we are such

a, an influencer and it's all about
our communication and our facilitation

skills as well in doing this too.

Right?

Like this is a great tool for us and
kind of helping our teams, um get on

board without design work too, and
understand the problems we're trying to.

Christian: Yeah.

So I said at the beginning that
night-night designs is a household name.

Every designer, I think knows about
99 designs, but with such a big brand,

I can only assume there are so many
challenges because you are designing

for a global audience, how, how
are you solving those challenges?

And, well, first of all,
what are the challenges?

And then how are we
going about solving them?

Megan: Uh, yeah, there are a
lot of different challenges.

One of the things that we have on
99 designs is, uh, we do use English

has kind of like the, the central
language that we ask people to speak.

But then we also have localized side.

So we've got like a, a German site.

We have a Spanish site, French
language site, et cetera.

One of the things that would
really love to get better at is

the localization of all of this.

So if we take our German website, we have.

An office in Berlin.

So we actually do have a good, like
about 30 team members over there

who, um most of them can speak the
language and we would love to make the

experiences for someone in visiting our
site in Germany to actually then see

designing samples that are also in the.

NA native language.

And that makes sense as well.

We also want to use, like, if we're
ever to use an analogy in our marketing

material or something like that, we don't
want to say something as though it's like

a peanut butter and jelly, because even
as an Australian, I just look at that and

I think, well, that's not speaking to me.

I'm not American.

I don't go to jelly, you know, so to
try to also localize things to that

kind of level, and we've got heaps
of work to do, but I think at the.

At the design phase, we have a really
great opportunity to be able to affect

change in this area and have it feel
as though as a more localized and

personalized version of the site.

It's definitely not easy.

There are the things that
trip us up all the time.

One of them.

Oh, I was just talking to a designer
before this call and we'll talking about

rolling out some particular functionality
and we were under the impression that

we only needed to release it in British
pounds, but it turns out actually,

no, we need to release this thing
and have it available for different

locales, therefore different currencies.

And that's just so much
more engineering work.

We also then have to consider the
different needs of the invoices

that our clients will receive.

And then the.

Yeah.

Like we don't have some norms
around how we may handle rounding

with that currency as well.

Because of course we don't
necessarily want to display decimal

points because, uh I can look a bit
gross that we are a design company

and a design website as well.

And so then there are different
trade-offs of business decisions

with those things, like, hang on.

Okay.

So if we're going around up or round
down, Who's going to take the hit.

Are we going to ask someone to
pay more money or are we going

to actually take a cut on that?

And how much will that kind of impact
our revenue organizationally as well?

Um I don't know.

There's just there's heat and then add
into it, our research approach as well,

and trying to research with a global
audience and that's kind of tricky too.

So we're looking at other areas
to improve in that regard.

Christian: Yeah, there's just so
much that off the top of my head,

I can think you mentioned currency.

You mentioned language there's
devices, the type of devices that

people have all over the world.

Not everyone sits on a, on a top spec
MacBook pro with the retina display

and not everyone has the latest iPhone.

Exactly.

But that doesn't necessarily mean.

If you don't have a great Mac book, you
can't be a great designer or on the other

side, that doesn't mean that if you don't
have the greatest iPhone, you don't have

a big company that needs design work.

It's a win-win if you design for a
global audience and you do it really well

because, well, first of all, Individual
contributors, freelancers who didn't

have access to a wealth of clients
worldwide, suddenly get access to them.

One on the same, on the other side,
it's the businesses that didn't

necessarily have access to great design,
great get access to great designers

from all over the world at different
prices, with different skill sets,

different design tastes and all of that.

And what that will do well,
obviously to the business.

That's, that's a positive, um, the
net positives for the business, but.

Because I truly believe design can
change businesses in a positive way.

What this does is that it, it gives
design, or it gives access to design, to

more companies all over the world that
maybe didn't necessarily have it before.

So I don't know how you're solving all
of these challenges and obviously there's

a million of them, but I can see that
if you get to a point where you are able

to do this really well, you can really.

Change, both on the freelancer
side and on the business side.

Megan: Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I'll also just mention that there
are some really lovely stories within

our designer community about how, um
even pre pandemic, like, because our

working on the platform, it actually
gave them different opportunities for

their own personal circumstances that
they wouldn't have had, um, in other.

Uh, instances and one of them is an
incredible illustrator on our platform.

he's one of my favorite illustrators
based in Indonesia, I was actually

trying to get him to come out to
Australia to meet with the team.

So we could kind of get to know some
of our designer community as well.

And he was quite reluctant to, and
I thought perhaps it was a challenge

for him because it can be quite
expensive and difficult to get a visa.

Um, yeah.

So there was that.

But, uh, through further conversation,
he actually said to me, look,

Megan, I don't speak English.

I rely on Google translate to
even send you this message.

I thought, okay, well actually we've got
like an Indonesian speaking team member.

Maybe they could be his personal
translator, further conversations.

He said, Megan, it's not going to work.

I'm deaf.

I was like, oh, okay.

Like, wow, you didn't
volunteer that information.

First up, you didn't need
to tell me that either.

It was just because I was kind of being
a pain in the bomb and trying to get

him to go to the Australian office,
but it's like, well, actually I wonder,

like, I'd love to learn more about that.

Um, and if that's like one of the
reasons why he chooses to work

through 99 designs rather than some
other kinds of opportunity as well.

So there's a lot of different little
nuances as well that are really nice that

it kind of within a designer community
and why they may choose to work on nine.

Yeah.

Christian: Just imagine that, I mean,
that's a disability and it's probably

harder for someone with a disability to
find opportunities than someone without.

So I can imagine how much the
platform means for this person,

because he earned a living through
this platform, despite all of the

disabilities that is suffering from.

So that's so amazing.

That should be a kudos to you
and the, and the team at 99 for

allowing the wider design community.

Make a living really.

So, uh, I, um I wanted to touch upon
something that you've said earlier.

You've said you've been with
99 designs, for quite a while

because it keeps you engaged.

You're learning.

It's a good challenge and all of that.

So I want to talk a little bit about.

The importance of doing work that
matters to you and the effect that it

has on you on your mental health, when
you're doing work, that doesn't matter

to you that much when you're doing
work that you're maybe not so keen on.

Cause I remember I worked on projects
before that I wasn't necessarily happy

or keen working on and that not only
affected the quality of my work, but

that affected my personal life too.

Personal life and life.

They are very much combined these days.

So let's talk about, this is how do
you feel about work that you're doing?

The work that you're doing is so
important to your mental health and

you should probably be doing work
that you're really passionate about.

Megan: Yeah, absolutely.

I think I would also say.

It's so important, but I also do
understand that sometimes somebody needs

to be able to make a living and the
opportunity that they have is perhaps not

something that they truly want to do, but
also I'm not going to judge them for kind

of doing that thing that I don't know.

Um, it may not be the sexiest or
the coolest job ever The hardest

truly in, but, um yeah when I think
about like past roles that I've had

and like directly before joining 99
designs, I worked for another company

who, um have the, I think it's the
largest real estate app in Australia.

And at the end of the day the kind
of users that mattered most to that

company were real estate agents
because they're the ones who are

paying the money to post those things.

Properties.

And for me I felt really conflicted
because I wanted to create fantastic

experiences for people to be
able to find a house that they

absolutely loved and wanted to
either rent it or buy it depending

on the type of listing than it was.

But it just didn't sit well with me
and trying to then create the profile

picture of the real estate agent marketing
that property to be even bigger or to

have much more information featured
that was less relevant to the end-user.

So I felt as though there were times
where I had my own inner turmoil

around this and the company's goals
and priorities, and I didn't love that.

Prior to working there, I worked at.

And accounting software company.

And the way that I kind of kept
myself motivated with that was,

I would think of my dad as one of
our, in Jesus, because his Attunity

sweet, he's a small business owner.

And I would think about him kind of
getting frustrated when he was working

with this accounting software to do
invoices at the end of the week, and

may as a little kid kind of wanting to
talk to him or, you know, do whatever.

And yeah.

Going Megan, I'm on the computer doing
this stuff, and I wanted to make life

better for other kids in that instance.

And for someone like my dad, uh he was
pulling his hair out is his computer.

That was the way that I got to enjoy
working on accounting software.

I'm actually feeling as I was closer
to the and it was also a really cool

form design, but then working on real
estate apps, I was like, ah, I just

don't care for real estate agents.

Like no offense to anyone who's
a real estate agent out there.

But yeah, that like that it was kind of
a, ultimately a big reason why I left

and why I joined 99 designs because I
was excited to actually be able to relate

even more to a big part of our user base.

Christian: Yeah.

I find that.

Has better quality when you care
about the end user, rather than just a

paycheck you get at the end of the month.

So you've said you've said at the
beginning that there are some people

who maybe are not so fortunate or
don't have as many opportunities as

someone in the Western world, or as, you
know, we can find a lot of examples.

I think obviously that is true.

I also think.

A lot of the people who are going to
listen to this are maybe towards the

beginning of their careers, rather
than someone who's super senior.

And I also find that to be a bit
of a problem, because I would like

to argue that someone who's at
the beginning of their career in

today's design world is not very.

Very advantageous situation.

It is hard to get your first job, but
it's hard to get your, your second

job when you're a junior designer.

So let's talk a bit about that.

What's if you were to start today and I
ask myself that question all the time,

and I don't really have an answer for it.

If you were to start today,
how would you approach.

Megan: Oh, I haven't
really thought about this.

Uh, I mean, I've done quite a bit
of mentoring and I do I do encourage

people to a lot of the people that I
talked to through mentoring already

have some kind of jobs, they're not
kind of completely unemployed and I

encourage them to look for opportunities
within their current role and the

current organization that they work in.

Uh, I, I have a problem with the
thinking that so many people feel

as though they need to do some sort
of bootcamp or something like that.

And I think that this could be because
I'm from like a very much, um, yeah,

like I'm from a, not a particularly.

A wealthy family or anything like that.

I like hate the idea of having
to spend $10,000 on a boot camp.

Like for me, I'm like,

Christian: so who has $10,000
just lying around at 19 when

you want to start your career?

That's crazy money.

Megan: Yeah, absolutely.

And it hurts me to think that some
people talk about spending their

life savings on this kind of stuff.

And I just kind of think, well, maybe
it's because when I started it was.

It was a very different world as
far as UX goes, but it was like,

I was able to find opportunities,
internally through working in a call

center for bloody insurance company.

Like the most un-sexy
job, most boring stuff.

But like I was able to kind of.

You know follow my nose and seek
out those opportunities and kind

of show people what I could do as
well, and find my way with that.

So, um, I think be creative.

Don't just think that it's a
role that you need to apply for.

The officially has the job
title that you're looking for.

I worked for five years at that
insurance company, ultimately, and part

of the reason why I left was because I
wanted to have design in my job title.

I was a UX designer for five years.

And not coding UX designer as well.

And I think that so many people feel as
though, well, in order to get a foot in

the door, then like step one is get a job
title of maybe it's junior UX designer or

associate UX designer or product designer.

But maybe actually you could be
doing that work and you'd be, could

be called something else as well.

I think that we're quite
literal with this stuff as well.

And we could be a bit more creative.

Christian: Yeah, I think it's also down
to businesses and employers because

you, there is such a demand right now
for design, but you also got to think

that because there is such a demand
what there is there, the demand is

bigger than the supply for a reasons,
because I think it's it's not that

easy to get into the field today.

And I, I don't remember who this was,
but I had a conversation with someone

in the previous season of the podcast
who said, I think today is one of

the easiest times to get into design.

And I agree it's easier to compare to
maybe 15, 20 years ago because you have

a lot of free resources on the internet
to kickstart with and all of that.

But I, I think what is, what
is harder today is that the

requirements to get a job.

More difficult than 15 years ago when
nobody knew what design could do.

Oh, you can open Photoshop
and that's great let's see

what you can do versus today.

It feels like you have to be
able to do so many things just

to get a foot in the door.

So in a way it's easier, but in a way
I also find it to be a bit harder.

And I think it's also the
responsibilities of the responsibility

of companies to say to open.

To graduates or newer people who maybe
can't really do that much, but they're

willing to be trained and they have
the right soft skills and all of that.

So, yeah, it's certainly a two-way street.

I will be changing topics completely now.

So this we're going to move from
junior designers to something

totally different because.

I, uh, I've done sports for,
you know, most of my life.

Um, since, since I was four, really,
and I know that throughout the years,

I've been able to draw a lot of
parallels between my fitness journey

and my career, my personal life too.

But we're not, we're not
going to talk about that.

So I know you're a long distance runner.

So I'm wondering whether your fitness
journey has taught you anything

that you've been able to apply it.

Megan: Definitely.

Um, and I'll try not to talk too
much about running because I am

one of those people that when you
get me started, I always shut up.

Cause I absolutely love it.

But I do actually attribute one of the
reasons why I have had this staying

power at 99 designs, even through
some really tough times over the last

six years is through the marathon
running that I've been doing and the

training that I've been doing for that.

And so.

Uh, a big part of it is getting out there
in the rain, in the crap weather or in the

heat, whatever, getting it done, getting
your hours in with your training, but

then also, um, it's just like a lot of
resilience and grit that you're building

up through these different things.

And so for me when I think of the
toughest times that I've had at

99 designs, one of them being.

My peer, he goes to the director
of product at the time, got breast

cancer, and she wants to kind
of keep working through that.

And she kind of insisted on us
not getting a replacement for her

while she was working through this.

But also she really wasn't well enough
to be able to work during that period.

And so I had to not only bear
that the mental, like challenge

of someone who had been.

Someone that I really loved and a great
friend going through this horrible

illness, but then also seeing the impact
of all of that on her team, the product

management team, and trying to help
lead the product team through this.

And like those sorts of things.

Like when you're doing marathon training,
you kind of have to build this like

sticking power to be able to run for.

Let's face it.

Four hours nonstop is a
pretty hard thing to do.

And you build up a lot of
mental resilience, like so much.

Endurance training is just all in the
head and that, um, that for me has been

huge in helping get through some of the
big challenges and kind of weather the

storms and get through it, you know?

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christian: Something that I've
learned through doing sports is

that good things take long time and
sometimes playing the long game is.

Wanting everything tomorrow because
in most of the sports that you, so I

recently started a Brazilian jujitsu
and I am absolutely crap at it.

You've got to be willing to be
shit at it for six months to a

year before anything good happens.

And in a way I think that whenever I
picked up what it was a new tool or a

new process, or whenever I joined a new
company and I kind of felt out of place

or anything like that and all this.

It always brought me back to the
idea of, you've got to be willing to

suffer a little bit, to get to the
good stuff on the other end and, and

nothing worth having, whether that's a
great job a great title, a good team,

nothing worth having comes tomorrow.

Everything takes more time than
ideally we would like to spend and.

I also run in circles here with
professional athletes and I find

the way they think about sports to
beat me in a way kind of similar.

They will never sacrifice the
longterm for the short term.

They'll never, you know,
go drinking a little.

To have a little bit of fun because
they know that that's going to affect

the next three, four days of training.

And I know those are professional
athletes, but what I'm trying to get at

is that idea of having a goal, looking
at it and then working backwards and

thinking well, in order to become
that in order to be able to lead

this team or to, I want to become a
director of design, whatever it is.

And then work backwards.

What do you, what are the steps
you need to do to get there?

So to me, that's what supports really
has taught me when it came to my career.

Megan: Yeah.

That, well, that is so true as well.

It does mean that you have to be
good at planning time management

as well to get in that training.

But, um, yeah, I like,
it's such a huge help.

Christian: I've also found that.

It's not something that you're necessarily
good at, but it's something that you have

to have around, which is the right people.

I've found that whenever you're on a
specific journey, which will require

sacrifice, which will require, long-term
thinking the people that you have around.

Can either, there, there are two types,
either the ones that will support you

and will understand all the sacrifices
and we'll be there for you or the

ones who will do things like, oh, I
just have one, it's just one beer who

cares or don't train today because you
can train tomorrow, stuff like that.

So I found that whenever you surround
yourself with the right people and

that's valid for work as well, not
only for sports for your personal life.

It truly accelerates your progress and
it allows you to reach your potential,

which is why I was saying, I think
right in the beginning, we were talking

about working with good teams and, you
know, building that trust and working

together with people, you'd like to
go for a beer with creating those

relationships at work can really be
a catalyst for better quality work.

I'm convinced of that because
I've seen it on myself.

Megan: Yeah.

Christian: You've worked in, uh, in
house for a few years, but you've

also worked in agencies for, uh,
for, for quite a while further back.

So I'm wondering, cause I've
done that I've done both.

And I'm wondering, what have you
found to be different between the

two in terms of your design work?

Megan: Yeah, I'm to clarify, like
I've worked in house much more than

I have in agencies, so I'm definitely
kind of more biased in that way.

What I've really loved about
working in agencies though, is

just that variety that you get.

And so I think that working
in-house, you sometimes maybe

get variety in different ways.

Um, uh, I also enjoyed it agencies.

Ever-changing group of people that aren't
worked with, like it be a different kind

of many teams within my agency peers,
or I feel be the only UX consultant

going to work with that client and kind
of be amongst an entirely different

team there as well as getting to have,
uh a good sticky beak at the moment.

Places as well, while I thought about,
oh, what I want to work for this kind

of company, let me check out their
office, let me see what their processes

are and get that kind of Intel as well.

But I definitely do prefer clients
side as kind of demonstrated by the

types of companies that I've worked for
and the jobs that I've, been holding.

But, uh, and I liked being able
to see something through from

such a finish so much more, I
think, depending on what changes.

You worked for the kind of work that they
do and you may get those opportunities,

but, it certainly does come about more.

So, uh, client side.

Christian: Yeah.

I found a it's interesting.

You said that because I found working
in agencies to be the best way to fit.

Where I want to work or what type of
clients, because that's experience

you get it through variety and
knowing where you want to be.

You get that through a variety of
working with different types of clients.

And, and also I think learning where
you don't want to work is just as

important and figure as figuring
out where you do want to work.

So to me, that's what agency

Megan: life.

Yeah.

I would also just add to that as well.

Whenever I'm hiring people, I
do have a slight preference for

somebody who has got a little bit of
agency experience in the next two.

And because you also get a whole bunch
of other things, including some really

great stakeholder management skills and
presentation skills and so on as well.

So it's a great feather to
kind of have in your cap.

Christian: Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, we always end the port cost in
the same way, wasted two questions.

we're about to be there.

We're almost at the one hour mark.

So, uh, the first question is
what is one soft skill that you

wish more designers would possess?

Megan: Um, we talked about
communication skills earlier.

I feel like.

Is really being taught to a lot of
people through their design education

and bootcamps and things like that.

So if I were to pick a different one, um,
I would actually say time management is a

soft skill that it would be great for us.

So all upskilled in, and it can be a real
pain point for some people, especially

when it comes to, you know, juggling
priorities and trying to do asynchronous.

Christian: Right.

Well, let's talk a bit more about that.

Cause I usually, these are five rapid
fire questions, but I found, I find that

interesting and surprising that you say
time management with w why do you find

that to be such an important, soft skill
to have in today's work environment?

Megan: Um, Yeah, for me, I am
thinking about our design team

retros and things like that.

And it does feel as though so much
of the pain that people are feeling

where they're not getting that focus
time, that they so greatly deserve.

They would be able to unlock some of that.

If they were actually brushing up
on some of their time management

skills and investing a little bit
more forethought in this area too,

and kind of looking at things.

You know, in a way that they can
actually take control of their time

a little bit more rather than just
kind of let things happen to them.

In that regard, I feel there's just
so much in the bucket of self skills

where I feel like I give designers a
bit of a thumbs up in a whole lot of

areas, just based on so many of the
designers that I made, I feel like

we do pretty well in a lot of them.

So I'm kind of nitpicking
a bit here with time

Christian: management.

Farrah.

I look, I do think that's important.

I think there's, what's also important
is especially when you're earlier in

your career and maybe haven't got that
experienced yet, but realizing that

focus time is so important for your work
because we're living in a world where.

We're easily distracted by what that's
devices or, you know, if anything

really, we have very short memory span,
attention spans, I memory expands.

And then you don't realize that getting
distracted and not being able to have

1, 2, 3 hours of focus work is actually.

To the quality of your work.

So the first step is first.

You need to know that that's important.

And then second of all is what
you said the time management.

How do you ensure that you
actually get that time?

And I think you also learned
that through experience.

Megan: Yep.

Agreed.

Christian: The last one is what's
one piece of advice that has

changed your career for the.

Megan: I don't know if this is so
much advice, but it was definitely

some feedback that I received from
a manager working at insurance

company, way back when, when I was
sort of having my first conversations

around design work with stakeholders.

And I remember I was.

Something about a particular
interface that an agency had created.

And I started to give my feedback leading
with our, I like, blah, blah, blah.

And my manager said to me, Megan, I don't
care about what you like, which kind

of took me a little bit by surprise.

I was like, oh my God, I'm in trouble.

Um, but.

I didn't care about what you liked.

Tell me about if this is going to work.

And I, so I've kind of taken that with
me and I've also given that feedback

in a different way to other people
within my teams throughout the years.

And it is so much more powerful
rather than say, I like this.

I, I don't like that.

Like, let's frame it as I feel as though
this would work, blah, blah, blah, or

would I, this kind of value, et cetera.

Uh, cause it's not about
your personal opinion.

This is business.

We're talking about.

If it is going to work, if it's
going to be in a better solution.

Christian: Yeah, for sure.

And I also think this reinforces
a point that we've made throughout

all of this, which is design impacts
businesses versus, you go to a museum

and you look at a portrait or picture.

And then you can say, well, I feel
like this or that, but rarely the

design that we're doing nowadays is
supposed to be about feelings and more.

So it's supposed to be about.

Why do we think this is working?

Will it work?

And what are the metrics we're
going to track to know if

it's going to work afterwards.

So I find that to be such an interesting,
I know he may be delivered it in a very,

uh, it was high, not sweet, but you
know, sometimes you you need to take a

cold shower, uh, very well, very well
received, cold shower to learn something.

So, yeah.

All right.

Thank you very much.

This has been amazing.

Where can people find you
get in touch with you?

You do some mentoring as well.

Um,

Megan: tell us all about that.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

So I would say you can
just find me on LinkedIn.

It's quite boring.

Uh, vats.

Yep.

So search for me there.

Uh Megan dell.com has
links to all of the things.

So that's just my name,
Meg a N D E double L.

And I'm also doing mentoring
through ADP list as well.

And that's really about it.

I do have Twitter, Instagram, all
of those things, but, um, you know,

time management trying to get a bit
more focused time and not spend as

much time on all those extra things.

Christian: Of course.

Yeah.

We'll be putting everything in the
show notes so people can easily

find you and the, and the mentoring
sessions on ADP list and all of that.

So, Megan, once again, thank you
very much for being part of the

design, miss business journey.

I hope you had a good time.

I know I had a good time, a good chat
and uh, we'll, uh, we'll stay in touch.

Thanks a lot, very

Megan: much.

That was great.

Christian: That's so wrapped for today.

I hope you found this episode useful and
that you've learned something that you're

ready to implement at work tomorrow.

If you've enjoyed this as always,
it would mean the world to me.

If you'd share it with your
community, if you'd leave a review.

And of course, if you'd remember
to tune in for the next one,

peace.