Design Meets Business

Christian: Maria Penkovski.

Maria, welcome to Design Meets Business.

Your career spans more than 20
years and you've worked for some

household names such as Evernote,
Upwork, and now Turo, where you

are a director of product design.

You're mentoring designers through
Career Coach, you're helping them

find jobs, prepare for interviews,
build confidence, and grow as leaders.

You are What I like to call a
design powerhouse, but you didn't

get here overnight, I assume.

So let's talk a little bit about how
you started out and what corners of the

design world your journey took you on.

Maria: Thank you.

It's really good to be here.

Been quite a journey I think is
a one way to put in it's, hasn't

always been um, kind of a flat road.

But I think it in many ways connects
to making you who you are today.

So you're absolutely right.

I'm a currently senior director
of product design at Turo.

And I've been there for three years.

I also have the business career coach.

design where I mentor coach designers
of all stages of their career on

variety of goals that they're trying
to meet and helping them really be

the best that they can be and take
advantage of the opportunities.

That often go untapped in the industry
and really develop the type of talent

that they already have and market them
in ways that they can get ahead of the

competition, especially now with the way
that the economy has been in the last

year has been exceptionally challenging.

So that's what I do today.

And prior to that, it's really
been the road to this point.

You know, I started out long time ago.

Now it seems like back in the early
two thousands as a web designer.

The term that is rarely used today,
but at, you know, at the end of the

day, we were interaction designers.

And I think that term still holds
behind product and UX design.

So my entire career has been in
the interaction design space.

I'm very fortunate to have picked
something to go to school and

learn and it translated well
into an actual career path.

I was fortunate to get into leadership
really early in my career, like

six months into my first job, I was
promoted into a management position.

Partially by chance, partially
because I displayed skills

that qualified to get me there.

And then it was on, on and, the
road has started and a lot of it

has been spent in management and
quite a bit of it was spent as an I.

C.

and a whole lot of it was
spent as player coach.

And then I taught and mentored really
for the last 15 years in parallel to

having a role in product design industry
as a design leader, what I am today.

Christian: Thank you.

Player coach.

Let's talk about that.

Maybe not everyone knows what it is and I
think it's becoming more and more popular

now, give us a little brief intro of what
is a player coach in the design world.

Maria: Yeah.

That's a great question.

The way that I would describe it, it's
a person who is a design expert has

experience to do the work themselves
and do great work, but also are a

leader whether they are a leader
that has direct reports or they're a

leader just as an influencer, somebody
who makes impact and influence.

So that's a level of seniority
and they contribute on both sides.

They still do the work
and practice the craft.

But they also serve in some leadership
capacity, whether it's again, managing

direct reports or having a freelance
team across the world or working with

subcontractors or whatever it may be.

Christian: I don't know about the
States, but in Europe, that's becoming

quite of a thing the player coach, is
that the same over there in the States?

And if so, why do you think that
shift is happening now in these times?

Why didn't it happen, 10
years ago on a large scale?

Maria: Yeah, I think in many
ways it relates to everybody

being full stack, right?

Everybody is expected to do everything.

From end to end of the process, just
like designers are expected to do

research and maybe even code a little
bit leaders are expected to be a designer

and then lead independently, but in the
same time, it's a scale because once

you find yourself in a place of doing
everything you can only do so much, right?

I think this model is
really popular in startups.

Yes.

Some for budgeting reasons some for just
being super agile and scrappy, but they

tend to want somebody who is, player coach
in the capacity that I already talked

about, but also that same person could
be like a CPO, and it's still really

out there, creating product requirements
and working with designers or whatnot.

So it's a scale where one can be
everything, but then as the more

you move towards one end or another,
you're actually better off focusing

on that particular piece because
then you truly are embodying that.

So for me, when I moved
into the leadership, it was

a very conscious decision.

to take that on as my core, something
I'm fully committing to because

where I was at that stage and the
responsibilities I was taking on,

there was no room to be the player.

I only had to be on the coaching side
because that was the job that I was doing,

but there are definitely roles in between.

And I think the smaller
the company, the more.

Christian: I've been talking a lot with
other guests in the past about this choice

that designers have to make at some point
in their career between staying as an

individual contributor and growing up
that ladder or moving on to the management

track and sometimes when you're there
to some people, it just feels a, it's a

bit paralyzing because I already know.

And if most of your
life you've been an IC.

that's the life you know, you don't
really know how it is to manage people.

So what I've seen player coaches in the
past, or where I've seen this role become

really interesting is it's a stepping
stone when you have to make that choice.

So the player coach will allow you
to dip your toes a little bit into

some of the management work or
leadership work while still staying

in your design tool every day.

And that way you get to see if
you enjoy management or not.

And from there you get to make a more
of an informed decision as to which

track do you want to continue on.

Is that how you see it as well?

Maria: You know, I have
to agree with that.

I actually currently am in a similar
situation that we have some team

shifts at my team on Toro and an
opportunity presented itself where

one IC who was at a lead level got
the opportunity to be positioned as an

interim manager until a more permanent
leader was going to be backfilled.

And in my conversation with him,
introducing him to the opportunity I

really presented that as such, because
while it's not an easy task, it lets

them do just what you said, which is
test the water to make sure it's the

right thing, the right role and is he
ready for that level of responsibility?

So I think it's really great when
companies present those types of

opportunities for their teams.

They don't happen often.

But you also can take on a role
that is specifically strategically

that as you said, transitioning
from an IC into a management.

You may be more likely to get a
role where it has the IC component

and some of management versus going
straight from an IC straight to

management, whether it's in the same
company or even moving through jobs.

Christian: That must also be really hard
to shift to make after a whole career

of being an IC just suddenly moving
to management and just only do that.

My experience is never as binary is a
hybrid, if anything, most of the time,

even as a manager, you still get to,
to be in Figma every once in a while,

even if it's not doing the work, at
least you're critiquing or at least

you're jamming or whatever it may be.

But there's something you said
at the beginning that I'd like

to pull a bit of a thread on.

You said six months into your job to
your first job, you got promoted into a

leadership position, out of necessity.

And That could have been or was
because throughout those first

six months, you've displayed some
skills that made people above think,

Oh, Maria can do it in this role.

And I'm wondering if someone at the senior
level right now, let's say senior lead

level as an individual contributor things
that player coach, that sounds like me.

What sort of skills do you think they
would have to display to be an attractive

proposition for a role like that?

Maria: I think there's two sides to it.

I think there is a.

Like a foundational core leadership
influencer, somebody making an

impact the way that somebody carries
themselves in their relationships

and conversations with others.

And then there's some practical
skills of actually getting there

and doing things that are just
a part of management position.

So how does somebody who hasn't
had that experience and now has an

opportunity to be a player coach,
or they decided that they want to be

a player coach, how do they really
embody and succeed on that side?

I think they have to channel
both of those, right?

I think first they need to
define to themselves what

does leadership mean for them?

I think there's a very clear
difference between a leader and a

manager, and one should be the other.

And, a leader doesn't
have to be a manager.

A manager should probably be
a leader to be a good manager.

But I think they have
to identify themselves.

What does leadership mean to them?

And how do they want to be
differentiated from being in a

C role to now being a leader?

And I think that this is where
coaching can actually come in really

handy because It's tricky, especially
if you are on the same team, right?

How do you get there?

How do you all of a sudden grow
up and take on this next step?

So the skills that you need
to succeed is the confidence.

And confidence comes from
knowing your leadership style.

And sometimes it just
takes time to define that.

And then it's just the ability to do
the things that, design leaders do.

It's building roadmaps.

It's understanding more than
just what one team is doing.

It's working with other leaders.

It's thinking about business strategy.

It's taking on a new
set of responsibilities.

So how do you elevate yourself a little
bit from being on the front lines.

Take on some of those responsibilities
that include impacting other

teams, people, and processes
and play the both sides, right?

So that ultimately you can move fully
into the leadership if that is the

right path after this experience.

Christian: You've mentioned
leader, leadership.

You've mentioned that a few times already.

And I want to pull a quote that
you wrote in a post on LinkedIn and

perhaps unpack that a little bit.

You said, be the leader who inspires
and motivates others to follow

them instead of someone who pushes
people out of the way to get ahead.

I think that sounds like an ideal leader.

Someone who, shows you the direction,
encourages you, helps you on the way.

Do you have any examples of Someone in
your team, whether now or in the past,

who has displayed some of this leadership
capability or leadership capacities,

capabilities of just inspiring others.

How do you inspire as a designer,
perhaps as an individual contributor,

how do you inspire others?

Maria: I'm a big believer in.

setting in North Star Vision.

I think there is a lot of love
and ideas and thinking that gets

put into a development of a pretty
far to reach kind of concept,

but the idea of what it could be.

If everybody did their part and when
you develop such vision, and obviously

it takes time in your career to get to
a level where you can think that far.

And I think that's really the big
difference I feel between an IC over

to a junior level to ICs of senior
level, because then they start thinking

deeper, further down, they understand
the product and where the long term

product strategy is to start developing.

Northstar visions that are
consistent and aligned and have more

energy to actually come to life.

So you develop a Northstar vision in a
way that inspires others because they

feel like, I could play this role and
together collectively we'll get there

because we have the right leadership.

It's aligned with company strategy.

We are going somewhere where it's
going to be a long, hard road,

but we can see a way to get there.

And when you get into that synergy you
get the team that's really bought in.

They're invested, sometimes
through equity in the company.

And everybody works together
and then magic happens, right?

So I do think it's about not only creating
the vision of the dream, but providing

the team a clear plan on how to get there.

Christian: And does that involve your
cross functional partners as well?

So as a designer, I oftentimes find
that it's mostly designers that can

inspire the other two cross functional
partners, engineers, at least in my

experience, rarely do it, but PMs.

Not so often.

I think oftentimes this is designed
that can draw a vision or, create

that North Star that you were talking
about and lay that out in front of the

product team and say, here's how we
could look like, here's what we could be

delivering if we put our heads together.

Is that what you mean when you say, create
a North Star and inspire people around?

Maria: You should absolutely
include your cross functional

partners into the process.

Maybe not throughout the whole process,
if you want the design to own it, but it

could be from the very beginning, at the
end of the day, you want to have alignment

that we are going in the right direction
because in many ways, the Northstar

vision at a design level is taking
something that was already demonstrated

at the company strategic level and
given more framing more ideas of how it

can be incorporated in the real world,
something that makes it more tangible.

I think working with cross
functional teams through the

process of developing that.

idea into something conceptual
that can be actually reviewed as

an actual product idea, product
feature, or something that will be

ultimately built in iterative phases.

You should absolutely work
with your engineering and your

product partners very closely.

In my experience, I've definitely
worked, with engineers that

didn't really stay involved.

I would say that it's changed quite a lot
since Figma became the tool of choice.

I think it enabled designers and
engineers to talk the same language.

And maybe I also design less.

So I'm exposed less to this world.

I stopped designing.

It was still sketch.

So it was still pre Figma.

But I don't, I see a lot more synergy
and partnerships between designers and

engineers, and I see our engineers at.

At Turo, at least they're being
incredibly creative and they come to

workshops and they suggest their ideas
that are part of the roadmap planning.

It's a real collective process
where creativity definitely shines.

So I think many times, those teams
just need to be given the opportunity

to be creative and to share their
ideas and they would be all over it.

As a matter of fact, I've met many
engineers who were like musicians.

And artists in other ways.

So they're, you know, they, they
hide behind the code, but they can

provide a lot of value into product
development early in the process.

Christian: I think a lot of people don't
really understand that the engineers

are actually highly creative as well.

They just display their creativity in a
different manner than we do as designers.

And this allows me to segue
into something that I think it's

interesting to talk about, because
you mentioned engineers who.

are good product thinkers as well.

Several examples that I can think of in
my career where I've had engineers say,

I don't think this is good experience.

I don't think this is good design.

So the engineers at some point start
pushing back on the design work.

And I've been thinking a lot
about why is this happening in

some teams and not in others.

And The only answer that I could come
up with, and I'm wondering if you can

self check this and let me know what
you think, is that if you as a designer

are able to form strong relationships
with your partners, and bring them along

the journey, the same you were talking
about earlier with setting that vision.

They are also more likely to let
their creativity come out because they

understand where and why we together
are heading towards what you think

about that is that accurate in any way?

Maria: That's I think that's exactly what
I was trying to communicate earlier is

that if the vision is everybody is excited
about it and everybody sees that there

is a way to get there and they're aligned
on the pathway to get there then you

feel more invested in its final outcome.

So you, rather than pushing back,
you're going to work together

collaboratively to figure out a
compromise that can get us there.

You're absolutely right.

Cause the earlier they're involved, the
more bought into the vision they are.

Christian: And if it's about
being involved early, and if it's

about building relationships with
these cross functional partners.

How do you as a designer go about
doing that on a daily basis?

Perhaps you're starting in a new team
and you want to build relationships

with the people you're working with
how do you go about doing that?

Maria: I think it's about just being
human and being yourself and letting

me a little vulnerable and letting your
People who you work with see that we are

much more likely to relate to somebody
who we Confident we're seeing who the

true self is in front of them, right?

That's been a really great entry way
into just relationships with people

you know cracking a joke here and
there I think is also not a bad thing.

But I that's you just need to get your
kind of foot in the door with somebody to

start building your relationship coffee
shots are great and you start finding

things in common between you both.

And I love starting every meeting,
like today, we're a day before

Thanksgiving here in the U.

S.

And I had a few meetings
earlier and everyone says

what's your Thanksgiving plan?

What are you doing?

Are you cooking turkey?

Stuff like that.

Having that connection that's
outside of work, I think makes

work relationships a lot stronger.

And then you want to, have proof, prove
yourself a reliable, responsible partner.

Obviously, don't let anybody down.

As a matter of fact, do the opposite, be
there for them, whether they are asking

for help or not contribute with your
thought leadership, make sure that you

guys are both, whether it's you and your
product manager, you and your engineers,

that everybody is doing their part.

If one ever feels like they're
not, they should ask for feedback.

As a matter of fact, you
should ask for feedback.

All the time, just to always have
yourself in check because you want

to be the right partner to your
cross functional partners, right?

And I think that word partnership, we
know how to interpret it in our data.

We know what it's like.

We have life partners.

We have work partners.

It's a bond and you need to
do your part and you need to

invest in that relationship.

And then ultimately it becomes.

Founded on a trust and respect and trust
for each other's expertise and respect

for each other and understanding where
each person you're trying to have this

partnership with is and like in their life
and their career, as much as you can about

them to demonstrate empathy and humanity
to, to show that, you'll, you don't

only care about them in a work context.

You actually care about
them as a human being.

Christian: I think if we draw some
inspiration from how we treat our

personal relationships, if you build a
relationship with someone , one of the

things that you are very inclined to
know is what they care about is what they

like doing, what they don't like doing,
what sort of personal details about them.

And I think we forget that work
relationships are the same.

There are also relationships and we
forget to ask each other or try to

understand what the other person needs.

One of my favorite things to do when I
joined a new team is to book a coffee

chat with everyone in the team and
then just ask questions about them.

What do you care about?

What did the person in my role
before me did not do so well where

do you think we could do better?

And just, it's just about them.

If they ask, sure, I'll say a few things
about me, but it's mostly about them.

And what I have found is that when
you do that versus when you don't do

that, you are already starting from a
better place because they start seeing

you not as this new person coming in
with all of these solutions and all of

this creativity and whatever it may be.

You're coming in and you're just
a human and you care about them.

And I think for me that is so key and we
often forget that just as we as designers

have things that we care about the
experience, we care about Consistency,

we care about all of these things.

So do our cross functional partners.

They also have the things that they care
about and unless we understand what those

are, I think it's really hard to build
trust and a good relationship with them.

Maria: Yeah.

I would also say that it's not
only just seeing where they're

coming from in regards to like
investment from their work side.

It's also where are they in their career?

And maybe this project that you're
working on is a really big, monumental

part of something that's going to
make, get them promoted or something.

So I think if you understand that
part of it as well, you can build even

more empathy and synergy between the
different people in the relationship.

Christian: You also mentioned
feedback earlier, which obviously

is key as part of this, whether
it's receiving it or giving it.

let's unpack feedback a little bit.

If you are in a team and maybe
something is not going so well,

maybe you are not having this great
relationship with a PM or an engineer.

role can feedback play into that?

Maria: We need to be open to feedback.

Feedback is not a bad thing,
despite of what some people

may think and be scared of it.

But feedback is great.

It needs to be a two way street.

Uh, It needs to be given.

It needs to be received
peers up, down, all of that.

Like feedback just needs
to be in a comfort area.

And feedback needs to be the source
of not Improving what's not working.

I don't like when feedback is framed
in a way I like when feedback is

framed as growth opportunities.

And obviously for managers to their direct
reports, that's how, it's framed in many

ways, but with peers, I think everybody
needs to take on this leadership component

that we talked about earlier, that as
you grow in your career, you pick up and

you start influencing and influencing
people, even in an IC capacity, but

in a peer capacity It's very valuable.

You can start practicing
your leadership skills there.

So there needs to be a comfort level of
just having a direct conversation with a

person and be like, you know what, I want
to give you some feedback and just be very

direct, be very empathetic and provide
ways of how that can be perhaps addressed.

If you don't feel comfortable
giving your peer feedback, then

you should speak to their manager.

And their manager should
deliver that feedback to them.

But the feedback, particularly
constructive feedback, but really

all feedback, even, complimentary
feedback, it should not be held back

because feedback is really for somebody
to hear it and to act on it, right?

Whether they should continue doing
something that they're already doing

well, or they should just feel good
about doing something that people are

having positive comments about, or it's a
really an area of opportunity for growth.

Because at the end of the day, some
of those harsh feedback that we've

gotten in our career has helped us
to grow and to be who we are today.

Christian: I know you wrote another post.

I'm going to reference a lot of
posts that you wrote quite a bit.

And you say feedback should be
clear, actionable, thought provoking,

given with good intent, and helpful.

This is a great list, and I think
four of these are quite clear.

But I'm wondering about thought provoking.

When I read that, I thought, phew.

That, that, that post itself is thought
provoking, but what did you mean by that?

Feedback needs to be thought provoking.

Maria: Because feedback shouldn't
be just something that tells

you, spills it out for you.

Sometimes it can be like,
you should start doing this.

Sure, but when you're providing feedback,
particularly in the context of a design

flow, user experience, whatever it may be.

You want to have the designer who is
receiving that feedback to think it

through and make their own decision of how
to go about solving a particular problem.

I used to teach and I taught for 10 years,
graduate and undergraduate students.

a lot of times I would have students
come to me after class, after the lecture

bring their laptop, put it in front of me
with their screens that they're designing.

You know, They say, Maria.

You gave me this feedback
earlier that this wasn't working.

What should I do?

And I would always tell them, my job
is to tell you what's not working

and why I think it's not working.

It is your job to figure out what you
want to do with that information and how

do you want to address it so that next
time I see it, things are indeed working

based on the merit that I showed earlier.

Christian: Okay, cool.

And if you, let's say you are
comfortable, giving feedback when you

have some feedback to give, but you just
don't know how, where can you learn?

How do you learn this?

It's also an art to give feedback.

If you would mentor someone today
and you'd say, and they'd say to you,

Maria, I have all this feedback to give.

I just don't know how, what's
the best way of doing it.

I don't want to sound harsh.

I don't want to sound disrespectful.

I don't want to sound irrational.

Where can I learn to give better feedback

?

Maria: Well, I think you can
learn in many different ways.

I don't think there's like a class
of feedback, but perhaps there is.

There's probably a class
on everything nowadays.

Again, you can work with a coach.

It doesn't have to be
a coach that you hire.

It could be just a mentor or
somebody who is great at giving

feedback or perhaps just in more
senior role and is comfortable

with that among many other things.

You need to do it in a way that
is respectful to the other person.

you're not trying to
give feedback to be mean.

Your feedback comes with good intent.

You want that person to get
better to grow and you're giving

the feedback with that intent.

It doesn't always happen that way.

Sometimes when we work with other teams
and we're like, I got to give them

feedback because what they're doing is
just not compatible with what we're doing.

It's not good or bad, or
it's going to help them grow.

Sometimes it's more tactical,
but when, somebody is giving.

Feedback, just critiquing
designs, maybe earlier concepts.

It needs to have merit.

So if there is a data point that's backing
up the feedback, there is an industry

standard, and there should always be
something that roots the feedback in

actuality, it makes it justifiable.

And in that case, being direct, making
sure that the feedback is very clear.

given with good intent and is backed up
by some data or some point of reference.

And everything is communicated in a
way of, again, you're doing this wrong.

Fix it.

Not that way.

It's more of we've had some
friction, blah, blah, blah.

I think there's a great opportunity
for us to work better ABC.

That kind of a format

Christian: when it comes to feedback on
design work something that I've always

struggled with is feedback based on
opinions It's really hard to deal with

because it you can't go to someone and
say no your opinion is wrong That's an

opinion is just that it's just an opinion
So when you present some piece of work

and someone says I don't like it because

I wouldn't press that button or I think
there's way too much text on this.

You can't just tell the
person you're wrong.

. How do you deal with that?

Maria: I don't think you need
to tell that they're wrong.

I think you'd be like can you show me a
point of reference where you've seen it

done that way, where it works really well?

Or do you have any research
that backs up your idea?

I think when you're not getting the
justification for the feedback and you're

not sure what this really is driving
that feedback, I think you should feel

empowered to ask clarifying questions.

If the feedback is targeted at you,
because you want to not only understand

the recommendation, you actually want
to understand what is triggering it.

Christian: So we've already gotten
into a bit of coaching here.

Let's move on to coaching and talk
about how you're coaching designers.

Now you're coaching
design leaders as well.

What got you into doing that?

Then what motivates you to
do it in the first place?

Maria: Yeah.

So like I mentioned, I have been in
the coaching, mentoring, teaching

space for almost 15 years, or
maybe it already has been 15 years.

Kind of stopped counting after a while.

I taught for 10 years in two, two
different schools, art schools for

graduate and undergraduate students.

Always focused on the career
development, portfolio development.

Yeah.

space wrote a curriculum for a
portfolio development course.

It was a great journey.

And through that process, I have
built a lot of relationships

with students who were there.

A lot of them were international students.

really developing um, understanding
of different cultures through the

process and how to speak design to
students of different levels, and then.

During COVID the classroom became digital
and virtual and the curriculum, the

way that it was set up in my current
classes I was teaching at that time

was really not designed for that.

So it was really challenging
to wrap up a semester there.

But once I got to that summer of 2020,
I decided to make a very conscious

decision to go into a consulting space.

I always found myself more valuable when
I could understand a student directly and

provide them personalized recommendations.

And I always felt that in a classroom
setting, some students got, got shortened

because the style or the approach or
even the level of a curriculum is just,

no, it just can't be one fits all.

Everybody's different.

Everybody's unique.

So I decided to go into a one
on one consulting space and I

did that for a couple of years.

As some people refer
to it as a side hustle.

I always thought that word didn't do
it justice because we were helping

people grow and evolve in their
careers and it certainly deserved

a better name than a side hustle.

And I formed Careercoach.design.

Same business name and URL, which
great, greatly helps with my SEO,

formed that January of 2023 . So we're
approaching our one year anniversary.

We have since then been working with
nearly 50 clients who've joined our

Slack community and they either got into
membership or they got into package or

they just got a session here and there and
they became a members of this community.

It's been a tough economic year
and despite all that we saw

results of growth and progress.

People becoming more confident.

People getting jobs recently, one of
the clients we've been working with

has gotten a really great position at
Netflix, for example so working with

principal level designers, design leaders
a lot of folks who've recently got into

that player coach stuff that we were
talking about earlier, or some management

and they're like, I'm a manager.

How do I become a leader?

How do I discover that voice?

So yeah that's the company it's
growing now into an agency model

and we'll be adding new coaches
to the platform in the new year.

So very excited about expanding the
different coaching approaches different

focuses in some areas, coaches will
bring in their expertise in different

verticals perhaps, and just in general
growing our community and being able to.

Help as many designers and
design leaders as we can.

Christian: That's awesome.

What would you say are the most common
issues that people come to you with today?

Maria: Find a job.

This year has been hard and
there's been a lot of layoffs

and I've seen an incredible.

Amount of talented, hardworking
people who were either about to get

laid off or recently got laid off or
were just in fear of being laid off.

And there have been people who's
been looking for work for years,

sometimes longer than a year.

That's been the number one reason
I would say in the last year, but

I think it's very much driven by
the economy and what's going on.

I will say that if I go back a year
prior to that, where senior designer

roles were going like hotcakes.

People were hiring everywhere during COVID
post COVID era that year, 2022 was all

about signing offers, help me negotiate
an offer, help me, get through that final

round of interviews or help me through the
interview process where this year was more

like help me just get a job on my, from my
portfolio to just getting somebody to call

me back because the odds are no longer
in designer's favor, so much talent out

there, their jobs are starting to grow.

I see, I see more jobs lately, which
is an interesting anomaly this year.

I feel like usually at the end of the
year, the job market kind of slows down,

but this time around, there's definitely
jobs out there and we've placed clients

just in the last few months, which a
handful of clients, which is really great.

But it's been a grueling,
grueling path to get there.

So we hope for new theme
next year, a better one.

And we hope to help more leaders,
more people to find their leadership

voice at any level of their career.

And those who are interested in design
leadership to get work with their coach

on really defining their leadership
style and getting those leadership skills

to be the leaders of tomorrow because
it's very important responsibility.

Um, And I think it matters not only
for their teams, but really what this

industry is going to be moving forward.

Christian: So I also hope that
next year you're going to help

more designers negotiate offers
then get someone to call them.

For now, though, when someone comes to
you and says, nobody's calling me, I am

just not doing well in my job search.

How do you take that person and
then help him or her get further on

that path to actually getting a job
or at least starting to interview?

Maria: Absolutely.

You have to market yourself
and you really have to position

yourself as the top in your level.

Portfolio is a big deal.

The way that your portfolio website and
slide deck are built it really matters.

It needs to tell a great story.

It needs to provide a lot of depth.

It needs to be beautifully designed.

I frankly think that lacks lately,
which is unfortunate having coming

from like graphic design background.

I remember how our instructors in
the university used to cringe at uh,

some of the designs and how it really
instilled in me the quality of design

presentation and how it matters.

And sometimes I see more like
really great projects, but not

a greatly designed presentation.

So I think that absolutely matters.

And then, you know, like,
do you know your stuff?

Can you present your stuff?

Obviously to get to present, you got
to get through the first round, right?

Your portfolio needs to be noticed.

So that's why your
website is so important.

You need to have projects in
your website that are relevant.

So there is this concept of relatability.

You need to position yourself as
the solution to the problem, the

company who is hiring having,
which is why they're hiring.

Better fit than everybody else.

How do you start beating the odds, right?

How do you get that to be that better
match for what the requirements are?

You want to demonstrate experience
in your portfolio, like that you've

done this type of work, you've
shipped work, maybe the work is.

It's relatable to the interviewers
based on the thematics.

Perhaps it's a food delivery
company and you've worked at

Uber or another food delivering
company and they find this match.

Perhaps you worked in the pace of a
growth team and they're hiring on a

growth team that makes you a match.

Maybe you worked at an e commerce and
there's marketplace e commerce space

that you're kind of hiring there.

You want to demonstrate that
relatability, you want to make sure

your website is not overstuffed
with text because people don't read.

It needs to be a balance of visuals,
quality visuals, like data visualizations

of what you're trying to say.

Don't put stock photography
or, filler type of images.

Make sure that you have graphics,
but the graphics are paired with the

content that they're demonstrating.

Also love animated prototypes of
the flows versus many screens.

Give the user an experience when they're
exploring your case studies so that

they feel like they understand the
concept, the problem, and your ability

to solve it, even if they didn't read
the whole thing, but they're able to

go through it, to scroll through it.

Do you actually enjoy that experience?

Cause you're building an
experience just like anything else.

Your portfolio is a product and you should
build it as such, deeply considering

your audience and then comprehensiveness.

Like Are they able to comprehend and by
the time they get through your case study,

is it clear that your experience matches,
relatable to what they're looking for.

Christian: So there's something
that you mentioned there.

You went past it pretty fast,
but I want to bring it back

because I think it's important.

And you said the portfolio
needs to be in great shape.

But your slide decks need
to be in shape as well.

Is that meant to be understood as
portfolio has one role, which is the

role of getting you the interview.

And the slide deck is what you
then present in the interview.

And that role, the role of that
slide deck is to get you the job.

So what you have online in your portfolio.

That's not necessarily what you're
going to present in an interview.

Even if it's the same project, you
might give more context or you might

talk about something that you weren't
able to talk about because there's

an NDA there in your portfolio.

Is that what you meant?

Maria: Yes, in some ways.

I wrote this other post on LinkedIn.

You've probably seen that one
as well, but I compared exactly

that website and slide deck.

So what is the different
ways of looking at it?

And I think at the end, I just did
this statement where I said, if you,

the analogy would be if your slide
deck is a movie, then your website

case study is a trailer to that movie.

So again you're dealing
with a different audience.

A website is being viewed by a recruiter
or a hiring manager in their space,

in their office, maybe during their
lunch hour, you'd have to consider

all those environmental things right
there that you are not there to keep

their attention you're not there to
provide a voiceover, how you would be

when you're presenting your slide deck.

You need to really understand your
environments and your audience

and design those to get them.

I always say that for a slide deck,
if you're going to be presenting

your slide deck, optimize as if your
interview is at 4 PM on a Friday.

And I've had a lot of those interviews.

Let me tell you what I was interviewing
somebody and you just I cannot

wait for my weekend to come here.

And when somebody surprises you
with a really great presentation,

you're bound to remember it.

Christian: I love that analogy
of the portfolio is the trailer

and the slide deck is your movie.

And I think this goes back to something
that's been discussed when it comes

to portfolio in the industry for quite
a while, but perhaps it doesn't land

that often, which is your portfolio is
nothing else other than a design project.

And when you do any sort of
design project, what are the

first things you're starting with?

Who's going to be using this?

Where, in which context, what
are the things I need to know?

What are the problems they have
that this product can solve?

And this portfolio is exactly the same.

It's a hiring manager,
perhaps a recruiter.

They want to know really quickly.

If you cover those three, five, 10 things
that they're looking for, they want

to be able to contact you and perhaps
get inspired a little bit as well.

If that's what they're looking for.

So thanks for putting that out there.

I will I'll definitely use
that analogy myself in the

future because it is so good.

when it comes to your portfolio,
let's say you've done this work.

It looks great now.

It's perfect for this audience.

How do you then apply for a job?

And I'm not, I don't mean that in
a, how does one apply for a job?

But I mean that in a, can you do
something else other than just applying

like everyone else applies to stand out
a little bit more than everyone else?

Maria: Yeah, not only can you, I think
you should, because again, you're

trying to stand out from the masses.

You want to be.

in the top, right?

So how do you do it?

An obvious way, which I think doesn't have
a high odds of success, unfortunately, is

to reach out directly to the recruiter.

Obviously if you're using LinkedIn
premium, I think there is like a

way to directly email the recruiter.

Unfortunately, because again, of the
volume of people who've been looking for

work in the last year, there has been
a lot of that and it becomes spammy.

You can create that response in a
way that makes it stand out from

other pins to that recruiter.

I usually, when that first statement
is not hi, my name is so and so here's

my portfolio, but saying something
catchy that relates to the company,

for example, or something like that.

I would also say uh, referrals,
referrals, and referrals.

This year seemed to have been much
greater odds to get a job through

a referral than through Cold Apply.

For me personally, in my career
overall, I actually only got

all my roles through Cold Apply.

I'm not sure if I am in the
common group here or not.

But definitely in the last year, from what
I hear from all of my clients is that most

of the interviews come from referrals,
just because, again of the odds.

And then finally, it's being a
contributor to the community.

In social media, LinkedIn
is a great platform.

I know you and I met in on LinkedIn.

In that sense, I've been using LinkedIn
platform ever since I established

Careercoach.Design business this
year and growing my followers list.

Um, I believe I'm close to 8, 000
we'll get there definitely this year.

So grew my network.

Quite a bit, and some of it is, you
grow your network by directly following

people or connecting with people.

And a lot of it is by the
content that you share.

Sometimes it's your thought leadership
and the posts that you write.

It's the articles that you share.

A lot of us have been
sharing jobs this year.

We share jobs a lot on our business page
on LinkedIn and you build a following

and a reputation and a network and
the more quality people are in your

network, the more opportunities you're
going to be exposed to the higher

the odds you can get that referral I
think a lot of the clients that I've

worked with this year have found me
through LinkedIn and for many of them,

it has greatly impacted their career
and perhaps they wouldn't have been

exposed to me or what I do if I was not
doing some of that content creation.

So I think in the job
search is just as important.

Christian: And if I may shamelessly
plug myself in there, a few episodes

ago, we had the Tom Scott on the show,
who is one of probably the most well

known design recruiter in the UK.

He's been creating a lot of
content for a lot of years.

And what we were discussing there
is a lot of this is about making

people aware that you exist because
there are so many people out there.

It's much easier to cut through the noise
if people know your name, if people, if

you interact with them, I think you said
this as well, interacting with people on

LinkedIn, answering, responding to their
posts, commenting, even if necessarily

you're not creating anything yourself,
just being there, part of the community,

I think even that is valuable if you look,
look, not everyone wants to create, not

everyone can create, not everyone has the
time, not everyone has an interest in it.

So, And that's completely fine, but
at least figuring out how you can be

part of the community in other ways
is something that I think You can do.

And another thing that I may add, and I've
been on both sides of this, I've been on

the receiving end and on the other end is
whenever you're looking for a specific job

in a specific company, it really doesn't
hurt to contact someone in a similar role.

So it might be, maybe it's not a
hiring manager, but perhaps you're

looking for a job at booking.

com and you're just looking
for a designer at booking.

com, sending them a LinkedIn
message and saying, Hey, I just

wanted to ask you a few questions.

I'm super interested in this job.

Okay.

Would you be okay that I send
you a couple of questions?

In most cases, they'll say,
yeah, of course, yeah, of course.

Why wouldn't I help you out?

You're not really asking for
anything other than them telling

you how it is to work there.

So you're not making a crazy ask, but
what happens sometimes is that you end up

having a conversation with that person.

That person offers to refer you
because there is a benefit for

someone who refers a lot of companies.

If you refer someone successfully,
you also get something as an

employee, you get a fee there.

So there is a benefit on both sides.

So I'd say if you're not comfortable
necessarily creating a content out there,

definitely get involved somehow in the
community and get in touch with people

from those specific companies, because
more often than not, they're really

willing to help people in the design
community are super willing to help.

Maria: Yeah.

I will also add that, in 2021, when
I was hiring quite a bit myself.

And the competition was fierce and
that was when there were a lot of jobs

and a lot of people were getting jobs.

a lot of people want to work at Toro,
so we always get a lot of applications.

And I would sometimes go through
them and the monotony of like in your

ATS searching through everything.

I will say that the people who did
reach out to me directly on LinkedIn

what worked well I think for them from
the conversion point for them is that.

Obviously, we were already connected and
I knew them from somewhere, obviously.

If they were not, we were not connected,
if their message to me contained a link to

their portfolio in a very top sentence,
at least it's easy for me to click that

link and then the portfolio pops up.

And usually for me, I
can tell really quickly.

whether this person is qualified
for the role that I'm looking

for as a hiring manager.

Christian: Let's take it a step further.

We're now in the interview process.

I'm in front of someone who's hiring
and you wrote another post that I

loved and that will definitely be
the show notes for people to read it

fully, but let's just surface level it.

There are a few questions there
that you've been trying to

demystify with this article.

Common interview questions that
designers are asked oftentimes.

And I'd like to walk through a
couple of them, probably not all,

but just a few of them headed here.

What would you hope that someone
in front of you who you asked

this question would answer?

So one that every designer has been
asked in any interview that they've

ever had is what is your design process?

What's your expectation there
is a hiring manager that they

Maria: answer with?

I'm going to say what I
hope that they don't say.

And I hope I don't get a walkthrough
through all of the points of

the Double Diamond process.

I think at the end of the
day, the Double Diamond at the

core of your process is fine.

But I think for me, what really
demonstrates to me a designer who has

gone through the end to end product
design process versus a designer who

only heard about it in bootcamp is That
every process is a little bit different,

but if it starts with some point of
origin and you're able to justify it,

and then you can walk through your way of
exploring the problem space and diverging.

And then ultimately converge on a problem
statement or a theme to explore within

the problems to solve within, then
you can diverge again in the different

ways of solving a particular problem.

And then you talk about the involvement
of research and other steps in

that filtration process down to.

Diverging into the final design.

So if you think about it, these
points of diverge, converge, diverge,

converge, it is a double diamond,
but you are not using the lingo.

You're talking about your process
as to how it went, because

sometimes the first diamond is a
lot larger than the second diamond.

And it's really important to
demonstrate your own experience.

Going through the design process.

There is no prescribed
process for you to retell.

There's not a specific answer that
your interviewer is looking for.

And if you're not going to say the
right thing, you're going to fail.

Actually, if you say the same thing
that everybody else says, you probably

are not saying the right thing.

So you need to talk about the
process as it has gone for you.

And perhaps even talk about
the areas that you want to.

Christian: If you would go in and you'd
say, I could tell you what the typical,

what the ideal process is but instead
of that, let me just walk you through

the process that I've gone through for
this specific project and then walk

them through an actual project so that
they can extract the process from them

.
Is that a better approach than
just talking theoretically about

a process that might or might
not have happened at some point?

Maria: I think it depends on
the context of the interview.

If you're having a quick recruiter call
and they're asking you like, tell me

about your design process, you shouldn't
be able to have a quick verbatim to

give them to answer that question
in a way that doesn't make you sound

like you've read that answer in a book
somewhere that is truly your answer.

I think if you're talking to
a hiring manager and you say

that, Hey, Great question.

I actually have a case study here that I
can share my screen and walk you through

to really show you what my process was.

Do you mind?

Like you can be more
upfront about that, right?

And that can give you an opportunity to
not only answer that question, not only

walk them through your process, but at
the same time tease them with this great

design that you've done and give them like
this feeling of, Oh, I want to learn more.

Let me invite them to a portfolio
case study presentation, because I

really want to see this whole project.

You've got to take advantage of all of
these opportunities to push yourself

forward, to get exposure, because
again, that's how you beat the odds.

Christian: I love that.

That's again, going back to the point
we made earlier about knowing your

audience at every point in time.

Although the question is the
same, the audience is different

in these two different interviews.

So obviously the answer can't be the same.

So a very good tactical tip there.

So let's do one more and then we'll
let listeners go to the article,

the show notes and read the rest.

So let's do what makes a
relationship with a PM successful.

Maria: Yeah.

And I think we talked a little bit
about that earlier as well, right?

It's that partnership.

it's the partnership that really
respects each other's area of expertise.

And the goal that we are
heading towards is clear.

And we are getting there together.

We're figuring out how to be that
supportive partner to each other to

collectively come to a victorious outcome.

I've seen a lot of PM designer
relationships in my career, those

that are unsuccessful is when PM just
delegates to design and designer

just does what they're told.

The relationships that I've seen
successful, the partnerships

that I've seen successful between
designer and product manager is when

they're problem solving together.

Not one person is right
and the other one is wrong.

It's always a balance and a dialogue.

And you bring in engineers into
that as well, frankly, right?

Cause it's really needs to be product
design and engineering collaboration

back to our point earlier of
getting engineers involved early.

So, Yeah, so it's, it's
a respect for each other.

It's respect for each other's expertise.

Alignment and working towards a
common goal and taking the falls

together and celebrating together.

So it's a true teamwork.

Christian: I'm just trying to figure out
what else I should ask you, because there

are a million things that I want to ask.

And there's only so much time we have.

I'm just gonna ask you
about one more thing.

The last topic that I want to
cover before we have to end.

I know you're also a master negotiator.

And it's something that we have in almost,
three full seasons of this podcast, never

discussed negotiating your salary any
tips there for someone who perhaps is

in front of someone they're negotiating
with right now and finds themselves

not knowing what to do or perhaps
knowing what to do, but just wanting

an extra tip to get more out of it.

Maria: Definitely don't be intimidated.

Every offer is negotiable.

And if your fear is, Oh, if I negotiate,
they will rescind their offer.

You probably don't want
to work for that company.

So I would say, don't be paralyzed
with fear that if you negotiate,

you are not going to get the role.

And if, again, if you don't get the role,
it's probably a blessing in disguise.

The worst that can happen, and frankly,
it has happened last year because of

the economy, is that you get first
and final, and usually companies are

up front with it, or they say that.

Right as you try to negotiate the
first round offers really rarely get

rescinded more often than not offers
get rescinded is not because the

candidate negotiated, but because
the company decided to cut the role.

So definitely negotiate, but I will
also say that if you are not comfortable

negotiating and so many people aren't as
a matter of fact, I am better salary and

offer negotiated that I am a Facebook
marketplace negotiator because once I got

swindled by an old lady over a table lamp.

Learned a lot of my skills
how to negotiate uh, there.

But I would say get somebody to help you.

Get somebody who's either done it.

I have plenty of friends who have, six,
seven years of experience in the industry

and they've negotiated for themselves a
couple of times and they feel confident.

It's not that hard to provide
somebody some guidance or hire

a coach, hire a professional
compensation, a negotiation coach.

There are folks who do just that.

There are coaches who
focus exclusively on that.

There are coaches like me who bring
that as part of their product offering,

because we do provide a full service
end to end kind of career support.

You've usually if you
hire somebody, the fees.

are a portion of what the Delta is
between what, they maybe would have

never gotten in the first place
and what the original offer is.

And in many ways it pays for itself.

So I would say definitely negotiate.

And if you feel uncomfortable,
get somebody to help you.

Christian: Thank you for that.

At the end of each episode, I
ask every guest two questions.

First one is.

What is one action that you think
led to your success that in a

way or another Perhaps separated
you from some of your peers.

Maria: I would say it's my
work ethic I never quit.

I definitely felt moments of
discouragement and despair

Particularly while searching for
a job and I've searched for work

multiple times throughout my career.

Even when I felt at my lowest, I got up,
I dusted myself off and I kept going.

Even after the most brutal rejection
or a, very honest feedback at your

performance review or whatever it
may be I always took it, processed

it and learned from it and moved on.

So I would say it's the resilience,
courage and determination.

Big words.

Christian: For sure.

Yeah.

I gave a talk about resilience a few
months ago outside of the design context.

So certainly something
that I believe in as well.

The other one is what are we not talking
about enough when it comes to design?

Maria: The people.

I think when we talk about design,
oftentimes we think about the artifact,

but what we really should think about
is that who the design is for and who

creates the design and why is the design
that mechanism of connecting humans?

I'm a big believer in humanity and I do
believe that most humans are good despite

of the crazy world that we live in.

And I think if everybody made it a point
to reach out and to really understand

who the users of the product really
are, and how can we really create the

type of work that makes somebody's
small, tiny little world a little

bit better, that collectively makes
the world as a whole a little better.

Design has the power to do that.

And we are here holding
it literally in our hands.

I always say that if every single
one of us is a pixel in the universe.

I want to shine just a little bit
brighter, so some of that light rubs

off on the pixels that are around me.

Christian: Nice.

Thank you for that.

What a note to end on.

That's a very beautiful way of putting it.

So thank you for that.

Maria, if someone wants to get in touch
with you, find out what you're up to,

perhaps get coaching from you, where
would They have to go to find you.

. Maria: So my website is a career coach.

design.

You can come to my website.

If you are a new client that we haven't
worked before, you qualify for a free

30 minute session to get us going
to see if our styles are compatible.

So please come and register.

It's a channel if you're
really interested in coaching.

I wouldn't do it just to kind
of, Hey, I want to meet Maria.

I would say that if you are interested
in coaching definitely do that.

So that's one way to get in touch with
me and get on a video call with me.

You can also email me
maria@careercoach.design.

Or you can find me on LinkedIn.

Please do follow me and
Careercoach.design business page.

We post.

Repost great jobs every day from that
we find in our network and is going to

continue adding more valuable content
there, whether it's sharing or some of the

thought leadership from myself and more
coaches that we're adding to the platform.

But I think, yeah, those are great
ways to get in touch with me.

Christian: Perfect.

Maria, thank you.

This has been such a good episode
and I hope you've enjoyed being

here as much as I've enjoyed just
listening to your stories and

everything you've shared with us today.

So thank you again.

And we'll be in touch.

Maria: Thank you so much.

It's been a pleasure.

Christian: If you've
listened this far, thank you.

I appreciate you.

And I hope you've learned
something that makes you just a

little bit better than yesterday.

You can check out the show
notes on design meets business.

co.

If this has taught you anything,
please consider leaving a review

and sharing the episode with someone
else who could learn from it.

And I'll catch you in the next one.