Design Meets Business

Christian: Vuokko, it's a pleasure
to have you on design Meets business.

Welcome.

You have been with Monzo for nearly
a decade leading the design function

through years of what we could
probably just call hypergrowth.

I think that's very reasonable from
the startup scrappiness of Monzo to one

of the UK's most loved FinTech brands.

And today you are chief design officer.

You oversee everything from
product to brand to the broader

design culture across the company.

But before we dive into that or rather
before we dive into the leadership

journey you are on, could you start
by telling us a bit about you?

How did you find your way into
design and eventually to Monzo?

Vuokko: Yeah.

Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, where should I start?

It's fun yeah, it's been a
long, fun journey at Monzo and

uh, journey before that too.

So actually, if I start
from the beginning, I did not

originally go into design.

I studied economics.

I got an MBA when I was young
and then found my way into design

since it had always been a hobby
of mine and got a second degree.

So I've had this kind of swirly path,
which has proven actually to be useful

as I've grown in my career, especially.

And I when the moment I really decided
to take a leap and get into design as

my main focus in life was when the first
iPhone was released and touch screens,

and then the app store came along and it
was just so exciting to build things that

people could actually touch and like use
in there every day in a whole new way

that I felt like computers, desktop never
brought to, life and my friend's life.

But that's been, that was a while ago.

then I guess agencies were
huge thing back in the day.

And then startups became
a bigger and bigger thing.

I jumped, that seemed like an exciting
opportunity to me at the time to feel

ownership and to see things through.

And I guess I've been on that journey
in different and now scale up.

Learning to scale myself and what I do.

Christian: Nice.

How many people were at
Monzo when you joined?

Do you remember?

Vuokko: I get asked this quite
a bit actually, and I don't

remember, but I should look it up.

It was less than a hundred.

because I've been thinking our design
team now, also, I look after design

in a broad sense of the word at Monzo.

Anything people see or interact
with, product, brand, the whole

end-to-end customer experience.

So that's product design, brand
design, and user research.

And we obviously have
design leaders as well.

The team that I currently lead
is over a hundred people, so

that's definitely bigger than
all of Monzo was when I joined.

So that's the, been the
scale of my journey.

Christian: That's massive.

Over a hundred people.

Vuokko: Yeah.

Christian: You must be busy.

You must have a lot to do these days.

Vuokko: Yeah.

Christian: What attracted you to Monzo
when you first heard about them or you

first had a chance to work for them?

Vuokko: I was an early adopter,
so I didn't join on day one.

I was a fan for a little while and then
got very excited, watched some tech talks

by the CTO co-founder and a few of the
founding engineers, and went to some,

I think an event that we used to host
in Shoreditch at the time in London.

And I saw the potential the scale
of the mission, the how, just

the size of potential that Monzo
could have in the world and the

impact so that really drew me in.

And I have to say we're still
on that path and it still feels

exciting and we've obviously made,
made huge um, on that mission.

But still there's so much to do.

I still feel like this is just
the beginning in a fun way.

Christian: I remember those talks in
Shoreditch I've been to a few of them

when I lived in London, and uh, you always
met a lot of interesting people there.

I've always wondered why did Monzo
think let's put this together.

Was it a just to, to build a bit of a
design culture around to, to enhance

the brand and now people know what
Monzo is 'cause we're holding these

design talks about, , obviously this
was before you, but then you joined

the company and you maybe got to find
out what was the deal behind the talks.

Vuokko: I think we'll talk
about transparency maybe later.

I think that's something that I deeply
believe in and it's part of Monzo's values

and has been from the beginning, I think.

building trust and
building out in the open.

Like for example, it was always,
always the plan to get a, a banking

license and to build an actual bank.

But we started with the prepaid card
program so that we could build out

in the open and learn about customers
and have some sort of product out even

before we had the banking license.

So I think it's came from that
wanting to build out in the open and

collaborate, co-create with people.

Like we used to say, come
build the bank, you'd want to

actually use this kind of thing.

That's why I joined because
I wanted to help build the

thing that I would want to use.

So I think it just came from A very
driven place and state of mind.

And it's still a big part of what we
stand for is not working, you know,

away in an ivory tower thinking we
know best, but really collaborating

with our community, which has obviously
now grown way past Shoreditch.

And that's something that, our
research team and others have become

experts in carrying this dialogue in
bigger and bigger ways as we scale.

Christian: I could be wrong.

Do I remember correctly that Monzo
had a Trello board with ideas for the

backlog that people could vote on him?

Do I remember correctly?

Vuokko: Yeah.

You remember correctly, it's, we
used to have a transparent roadmap on

Trello that anyone could look at and
see what we're going to build next.

Christian: That's what it was.

Vuokko: now, and I have to say,
we have so many product squads and

we've been successful, so we're
able to build many things at once.

Now I think that scale of uh, transparency
wouldn't be possible anymore, but we're

still, I would say a transparent company,
but that was, that was a fun time.

Christian: Yeah.

I just didn't, I didn't know if that
was it seemed, I seemed to remember

something, but the, I think this segues
really well into something that we

talked before about, that we wanted
to bring up, which is transparency.

And obviously transparency is a value
or one of the principles of Monzo.

But um, I think you've also talked
about this separately in your talks,

in other podcasts, that it is something
you embody also on a personal level, and

therefore you are best placed to bring
this transparency to life in inside

of Monzo, in, in your leadership role.

So what does that mean?

Let's talk practically.

What does that mean when you
say we're transparent and I

bring this in a different way?

Vuokko: Sure.

Yeah, I guess everyone,
that's very easy to say.

I believe in transparency
to be transparent.

I will say it takes more
and more work as we grow.

It's a lot easier to be transparent
with a team of 10 people than a hundred

because there's just a lot of context.

Setting, but I still very much
believe in it and put work into it.

I think two big topics come
to mind under transparency.

One is really empowering designers
to have the context they need to make

great decisions and actually lead, and
that comes through like company-wide.

I think designers having access to
data and business context that helps

them understand where their work fits
in and how, how they can drive it.

So that's one part.

And something that I, as a someone who
reports to our CEO and am part of, let's

say, our company leadership and decision
making as much as possible, I like to

share that context of what matters to
us, what's coming next, we should focus

on as a set of design disciplines.

And then translate that.

I think it's translation
back and forth, to be honest.

It's translating the business context to
designers transparently as, as much as

we can to help them know what to focus
on and how to have the biggest impact.

And then transparency in
leadership, just on a human level.

I think it's important to, to share how,
what I am focusing on, what I'm excited

about, what I'm, I would say, I, I was
about to say what keeps me up at night.

I, nothing actually keeps me up at
night, but like things that I want to

make sure go really well and I want to
focus and make sure that we don't miss.

So I think this kind of transparency
also on how I'm feeling, how I'm doing.

I'm obviously also human and it's, I think
I'm pretty good at my energy levels and

somehow I've managed to enjoy
the ride of a hypergrowth startup

for almost nine years now.

So I must be okay at balancing
my own energy levels.

But either way, I think being open
about, I'm feeling great today.

I'm actually pretty tired
today, something else.

I think that kind of transparency
helps everyone know that it's

okay to feel different things.

And we are on this like long
journey together and yeah, so I

think different kinds, both on
the business and personal context.

I would say transparency matters.

Christian: I think, like you said
earlier, it is very easy to hide the

word transparency in a notion document.

This is a company value and it doesn't.

Really translate.

It doesn't really mean
anything on a daily basis.

And I guess that's why I wanted to
talk to you about this because you've

made it very clear that this is
something that you believe in and you're

not just paying lip service to it.

So one of the things that I was
wondering when you talk about

transparency, 'cause now you've talked
about transparency from the top to

the bottom, more or less, here's what
us leadership are doing, here's how

we're empowering you, or here's where
you can find all the things you need.

No secrets.

Great.

I I would argue that most of those
are important in order for designers

to be able to do their work without
access to data, how am I gonna know?

What am I gonna improve?

And so I, I think some of
these are baseline expectations

when it comes to transparency.

What are your thoughts on
transparency between designers or

between designers and researchers?

I'm thinking mostly about collaborating
on work, making sure that everyone

knows what everyone else is working on.

What are your thoughts there
or that's perhaps not as

important as the other stuff.

Vuokko: Oh, that's a great point,
and it's definitely up there.

Equally important.

and it's something that we spent a
lot of energy on now that we have

scaled up and grown as a team.

So it's obviously not as automatic to
collaborate between a hundred people,

but we definitely pay attention to it.

In fact, I think it's one of
the superpowers that Monzo has

that it's hard to copy that we've
been able to scale up this far and

investing in it so we don't lose it.

So we work as a team across the
product and brand share work in

progress in different ways on Slack,
in critiques across the whole team.

We have a monthly ritual.

We have a quarterly team day
where everyone gets together,

shares it in like a different way.

And I think out of all the different
functions, obviously collaborates,

but I think design is a natural
function to be the keeper of the

end-to-end customer experience.

And we obviously design is seeing the same
design system and it's our responsibility

to create a consistent level of
quality delight across everything.

So I think it comes naturally to us.

And I think we've have built that kind
of collaboration and hi and hired a

team that's excited to work together
and learn from each other and share this

kind of like community of craft as well.

So it is very important.

I think it might be so obvious
that I even forgot to mention it.

And then I would say also, like I, don't
know if this counts as transparency,

but communicating up as well.

I think something that I feel I
can bring to Monzo an understanding

of why something worked.

If we invested in a piece of design
and it was successful, I can explain

this is what we did and this was.

Why it was it, why it worked, and why
it's worth investing more in this.

And I think with this is something we
built up over the years as well of kind

of design education piece by piece.

You start with something and you
explain, this product launch or

feature has been successful because
of this and it's replicable.

And then we do more of it and more of it.

And at this point it's very widely
understood that when we invest in the

experience it's more likely to do better.

Christian: And when you're talking about
sharing some of these success stories

or also the behind why something worked,
is that something that you have a uh,

ceremony for or do you do that ad hoc?

Is it more of a, Hey, I record a
loo video I shared with a company

whoever wants to watch it, watches it.

Do you have a database of
things that have worked?

There are a lot of ways of doing
this practically for Monzo.

How do you think is the best way of
doing it and how are you doing it?

Vuokko: Yeah, I think it's a
mix of structured and ad hoc.

So on the structured side we
have channel for regular design

updates that everyone is invited
to share their work in progress.

Just a few screenshots and explanation a
format that's easy to share at a glance.

Research insights as well.

And then we've made sure, for example,
at company All Hands, to always have

a customer, kind of a research segment
we have if we share work been launched

or at Tech All Hands, like a work in
progress, we often bring the design point

of view and the process of creating it.

So different ways, but then I do, I
feel like I'm a big, I'm a designer.

I'm a big fan of design
and the creative process.

So I am pretty enthusiastically share.

If I see a great piece of work that
my team's doing, I will share it

with anyone on the team or different
leadership teams that I'm part of.

If, and I have to say
like people get excited.

People love seeing and understanding
how design works and how that

people love come together.

So I don't shy away from sharing, just
work in progress to and I think it builds

this understanding for design as a process
because I must have talked about this

before, but as we all know the more work
that goes into a piece of design, the

more it looks like it's meant to be that
way and no work went into it at all.

So I think it's up to us in
design to open up that process

and what did actually go into it.

Otherwise, it'll just seem like
the automatic, natural thing

that was always meant to be.

Christian: This reminds me of a
quote about someone writing something

and sending a letter and saying, I
apologize, it's a five page letter.

I didn't have time to
make it a one page letter.

And it is the same thing
you're talking about, isn't it?

Vuokko: Completely.

Yes.

Christian: You mentioned earlier, and I
struggle a bit with this because Ive been

in teams where this is not so natural
and you said I forgot to talk about it

because I think it's so obvious, and
I think it's actually not so obvious

for a lot of teams where the ideal is
to work as a cohesive unit, but the

natural and default is to be in silos.

If we have four squads that each work
on a different thing and they might be

adjacent to each other, but not really.

Oftentimes I think the natural
response from teams is, oh, I'll

just go and work in my corner.

I actually think you need to do a
consistent effort and design leadership in

companies needs to do a a targeted effort
as making sure that the, that doesn't

settle in that way of working in silo.

So how do you keep track of it and
how do you make sure that you're

keeping on, on, on top of the teams
collaborating and working with each other?

Yeah, practically how are
you doing that at Monzo?

Vuokko: Yeah, so I do regularly talk
about our priorities being customer

first, then Monzo as a whole, like the
entire team, and then any individual team.

So I think like that, having that in mind
that the customer comes first and the

entire product and re reminding of that.

I think some of it comes from repetition
and championing these pieces of work that

connect different parts of the product
and make the overall experience more

seamless or elegant, but also think.

Everyone can get that, but it
might still be hard to participate.

So I think another kind of whole
dimension of it is creating psychological

safety and this feeling of a team
where everyone's opinions and people

feel comfortable sharing their work.

There's always gonna be some friction.

We not, even if design is about
solving business problems, not about

expressing yourself, there's still we
put our efforts into a piece of work.

It's, of course it makes nervous to
share it, but I think we've created

an environment where people feel safe
and excited to share and get feedback.

And I think creating different
kind of forums as well.

Like I mentioned, we have a place to
share on Slack regularly or in design

critiques or different kind of things.

So I think we can
accommodate different styles.

And ultimately I do believe that a piece
of design should also speak for itself.

So even if you just share the work and
few bullet points about it, should

get people excited if it actually is
clear thinking and elegant outcome.

Christian: So digging a bit deeper into
that idea of we've created a transparent

culture in which it's safe, people feel
safe to share their work and get their

feedback, and off the back of that,
what is the encouragement to do, like

every piece of feedback is important.

Or is it still you as a designer
that gets to decide what you take

into consideration and whatnot?

If you don't take some feedback
into consideration, what are

you meant to do with that?

Are you meant to communicate that?

how are designers at Monzo encouraged
to handle that whole process?

Vuokko: That's a great question.

I suppose we have a pretty wide product
portfolio at this point, so if we started

with a pretty simple prepaid card, but
since then we built the current account

and the full suite of features from credit
cards, all kinds of budgeting features

and paid subscriptions and kids accounts
and business accounts for different size

businesses and, a lot of other things.

So I think it is ultimately a
designer with context about that

part of the business who will
have knowledge that others don't.

And when I say critiquing across the whole
product, I think that's a part of it.

I think it's important to, to have
those kind of cross product of view.

How do things connect?

What kind of the word synergy?

I don't know.

The kind of what are there are, like
from a product mechanic experience angle.

There are a lot of like surprising
connections you can make when

you just abstract one layer up.

But I do think ultimately it's
the business context as well and

working with cross-functional
peers that matters an equal amount.

So it's a bit of a balance, but
yeah, we, and we encourage designers

to, to lead and be opinionated and
speak up for their decisions and

justify them through insights and
design principles and everything.

So we're, ultimately the
designer makes the decision.

And we try to help people
make good decisions.

For example, one of the things I'm
happiest to have created at Monzo is

our brand strategy because I think
it sets a shared vocabulary for how

everyone can make great decisions
that are really customer centric.

Kind of help us go beyond customer
expectations to create something

better than people imagine.

That's kind of the, the key of it.

And I think that's helped a lot because
it empowers designers to make ambitious

decisions and put them forward.

And then also almost, it's not
like we have the right to do that.

We almost, we have an expectation now.

This is how we are different, and it's
how we've agreed Monzo differentiates.

Christian: There are a few
themes that are converging here.

Customer first, then designers
are empowered to bring the best

experiences forward for the customers.

That's great.

And I want to talk about that.

I know we, we've discussed even
before hitting record but there

is one more question that I have
about transparency because as with

everything else, too much of something
can potentially also not be good.

So I'm wondering, is there a limit
to transparency in the com whether

it's something from Monzo or whether
it's something more in general.

Is there a point to which you say,
starting from here and going onward,

less transparency would be better or
more transparency wouldn't be a positive

experience or there's no limit to it?

Vuokko: That's a great question.

I think about the amount of
transparency we had at early, early

months I don't think the current
size of company could support it.

I think at one some point, if you go
from less than a hundred people talking

transparently to thousands, you have
to manage that communication load.

So I would say there's definitely
a danger of information

overload or context overload.

I'm sure could spend my whole day
just reading context on Slack.

At some point we need to make sure
that it's the right amount of context

of transparency and then just decide
this is what I'll used to do my job.

So I think it, as we grown, it's
become important to have more

concise updates and, think about the
audience and what is it that everyone

needs to know and then have more
detailed updates for specific groups.

Mostly the dangers come from scaling
and just information overload.

If I had to think about it.

There's a amount of context,
amount of information, amount

of things you could consider.

I think.

a product like Monzo that's so central
to people's lives, like it's money.

We all use it every day.

That's why I think why we have such a
special place in our customer's lives

as well, because they open the app
multiple times a day and they really,

it's part of the, the fabric of your
life so that we have a lot of ideas.

There's a lot we could do.

Everyone's excited, but we need
to draw the line on what do we

prioritize, what do we spend focus
on today and this week and this year.

I think context, like too much
trans transparency can potentially

overwhelm and confuse as well.

Christian: So talking about prioritizing
and what we're gonna work on, you

prioritize something at Monzo,
which is um, this term or has gotten

the term coined as Monzo Magic.

What is Monzo Magic for
anyone who doesn't know?

And then we'll get to talk about why is
that working, why is that so special?

Vuokko: Sure.

My favorite topic.

So yeah, we've talked about Mazo
Magic pretty organically for years.

it's a big part of our culture,
both internally and externally.

We talk about it internally too, about our
culture and how we care for each other.

On the external customer facing side,
I would define it as going beyond

customer expectations to make something
better, better than they expected.

And that can be a really
delightful transition or micro

interaction or piece of copy.

But I think, it doesn't need
to be confetti everywhere.

It's not just surface level delight.

A big part of magic is just removing
cognitive load and removing tasks

and taps and work from customers.

So I think if you come in to a financial
product and imagine up for insurance or

I don't know, becoming an investor to
be, an hour's worth of work and reading

through PDFs and figuring things out,
if it's actually easy taps that feels

like magic like, oh, actually this
was easy and I can go on continue my

day and not think about it anymore.

I think that's a huge part of it
is just going beyond expectations,

but it doesn't mean just confetti
in your face all the time.

So I think we really need to be
considering the type of product we are.

We definitely don't care about dwell
time or hogging people's attention,

but it's being respectful for.

Helping them do a task as easily
as possible and then getting out

of the way, and then sometimes when
it's appropriate, doing something

special with that attention.

Christian: You talk a lot about
surface magic versus deep magic.

And I think surface magic is
something that we as designers

can do easily and push forward.

It's an animation, a piece of haptic
feedback, but my interpretation

is that for deep magic, we often
need other people on board.

So I think you gave an example before
of connecting your mortgage in 60

seconds and how you have a lot of
positive feedback about that moment,

which makes complete sense to me.

But I'd be curious to hear how that
started because it doesn't sound

realistic for me that a designer came
and said, in order to remove some

freight, we can make this faster.

Let's do it in 60 seconds.

Like it's probably compliance has
to come in, engineering has to

come in, product has to come in.

A lot of other people have to
come in to make that happen.

But I'm curious, was that a design driven
experiment or was that something else?

Someone else came up with
it and design supported.

How do these moments happen that are
a bit more about deep into the system

rather than something on the surface we
can do with Rive or with some JavaScript?

Vuokko: Yeah, you're absolutely right.

It takes a lot of
multidisciplinary collaboration.

And I would say had that from
the beginning for reasons

even out outside of design.

But I think we've built and kept it
alive and built on it in different ways

through design over the years as well.

So if I go back to early days of
Monzo, one of our original kind of key

differentiators was instant notifications.

Instant payment notifications.

So that just having a modern realtime app.

Was different back then,
eight, nine years ago.

And obviously times have changed, so
that's now more expected than it was.

But I think that kind of like
building a modern realtime app that's

slick, that's quick is part of the
DNA of Monzo engineering as well.

And we have built our own
tech stack from the ground up.

Everything we do, we can do on top of
modern tech that behaves as we want.

And there's no, technical debt that's
holding back our creative ideas.

So I think obviously we've hired
amazing team of engineers as well,

I think would just generally a
customer centric team and company.

But I think that tech
stack is a huge part of it.

Obviously you can have the best design
ideas in the world, but if tech

stack doesn't support it, then it is.

It'll just stay in Figma.

So I think part of it's this but
then I do think over time learned

to look at an experience like let's
say if you get your salary paid into

Monzo, you can get it a day early.

And we have this drag
animation that people love.

It gives them like a real little
dopamine hit in a good way to feel

like this is the best day of the month
and I can celebrate it a little bit.

Feels good.

So that drag interaction, we obviously
hold people's attention for a few seconds.

Maybe it's an extra five
seconds in their month.

Like the money doesn't just
appear automatically, you drag

it into your wallet and there's
actually confetti in that moment.

So this, for example, came out
of, it was so much workforce for

engineering for compliance, for all
different disciplines to make this

even possible to happen and to build.

It's a huge piece of work.

So we thought, you know what,
it is a special thing to

celebrate and it's been worth it.

So I think it depends, and sometimes
the best thing to do is get out of

people's way, and sometimes it is
to stop and maybe make them think or

make them feel something positive.

So it, it really depends, but I
think it comes from what is the

right way for the product to behave
and how does that fit into what

people are going through mentally?

Christian: I think a lot of these
innovations that you are not

thinking about and then someone
comes up with them and you think, why

hasn't this always been like that?

This makes so much sense.

But we've always done things in
this specific context in a specific

way that we just never took the
time to look at how we could be.

So I get the sense that Monzo is
very much a first principles type of

company, so when we're talking about
this magic, it sounds to me, especially

when it comes to this deeper level of
magic, that it's very much required

to start from first principles because
otherwise how would you break these

patterns that we already know, oh,
connecting a mortgage takes 15 minutes.

Well, I guess everyone does it like
that and I guess that's normal, right?

But if we think from first principles,
maybe we can break that pattern.

So do you encourage designers to do that?

Is there space for designers to do that?

And sort of.

try at least to reimagine and
reconsider some of these big

experiences that are antiquated.

And they've always been like
that that they could actually be

re-engineered in a different way.

Vuokko: Yes, definitely.

I think this was part of why Monzo
was founded, was that there is a

better way, these things some of
them are hundreds of years old,

like the mental models people have.

So I think there's a lot of opportunity.

It doesn't mean that we will definitely
design everything from the ground

up using first principles thinking.

It's not always efficient, but we
definitely agree and encourage everyone

to start there to think what would
the best possible version of this be?

Rather than like a slightly better version
of what's already out there and then

that best possible version, maybe we
build that or maybe it inspires something

that can be part of the solution and
we don't quite go all the way there.

But it's, it's a huge part of how we work.

And I would say also speak, also bringing
engineering and the code side into this.

Again, I personally, I think it's
been so great that we focused on the

mobile platform and become experts
in mobile devices and what they've

obviously become more powerful
themselves as has matured as well.

So if you think about all the different
sensors and things that a mobile device

affords, I think our team's pretty
good at working with engineers thinking

about not just the screen as like a two
dimensional thing, but also like it's.

It come, it knows your location, it
has your contacts, it has a gyroscope.

It knows if you're on the
phone, all of these things.

So I think designing for the context of
something that people carry around, it's

touchscreen a lot of other things on it.

I think that's helped us think
of different solutions as well.

Christian: You're touching up on something
that I am a very big fan of talking about

because it's one of the principles that
I've had a lot of success with, which

is always invest in your relationship
with engineers, designers and engineers.

The better their relationship.

No product plays a part of that as well.

But in this specific case, I think
design and engineering together, if

you don't have that good relationship
with engineers, it's much more

difficult to make these slightly
more complex pieces of work happen.

Because if you have engineers that are
well bought into the product they might

be having a good product mindset and they
have a good relationship with design.

You can jam on these ideas.

They, or they, sometimes they'll
bring ideas to you, Hey, there's

this new technology that I've
discovered over the weekend.

I thought we could do this and that,
but I don't know how I would design it.

Do you wanna do something together?

And I think it's so important to invest
in that relationship that you have with

engineering, because at least the way the
world is now, we don't know in the next

five to 10 years, but at least the way it
is now, not a lot of designers can build.

So if you want something to get out
of Figma and into someone's hands, you

probably need that good relationship
with your engineers, don't you?

Vuokko: Absolutely.

Christian: So we're talking
about first thinking principles.

Okay?

That's one of the ways that we
might want to come up with some of

these magic, let's call them ideas.

I'm wondering if there's another
side of the coin to this, which

is where learning or we're letting
data and analytics direct us as to

where the next opportunity might be.

Is that also another way of doing it?

Because if you're in a company where
perhaps you might, let's say it's a

company that's very data heavy and all
decisions they make are based on data,

which is very prevalent these days.

Can you use that to inform you,
okay, there's something here

that we might want to explore.

There's something here
that could be better.

Or does it always have to be one of these
first principles thinking way of working.

Vuokko: I guess there's a few
different ways to look at data.

What one way product teams use
data is to look at it and make

incremental improvements that are
easy to measure and they feel safe.

And I think there's definitely
for that and we do a lot of that

kind of work too, obviously.

I think, like I mentioned, like
a fellow Monzo has a pretty wide

product portfolio at this point.

Like some of what we do is like brand new.

It's zero to one work, we don't
know anything about it yet.

Some of it's matured and maybe
we're just growing it and we're

like um, making smaller changes.

So I think there's a also a
time and place for everything.

I definitely have nothing against
this kind of more incremental

kind of growth approach as well.

I'm huge believer in in data as
like a strategic strength of a

business as well and for everyone to.

I mean if think about research as
qualitative data and then there's qu data.

I think both of those you can
use to really understand your

customer base and biggest
opportunities and areas of friction.

I definitely do a lot of that feel
like, oh, here, seems to be a massive

gap so we could do something here.

So I think data doesn't, absolutely
doesn't need to be the opposite of

big ambitious leaps either because
we can use data to spot those and

that's actually a lot of what we do.

Christian: I think spotting is one
of the things, but I'm also thinking

about using data that you have to give
you a bit more ammunition that this is

something that we might want to invest in.

'cause if we look at the, a specific
flow or something like that, and we can

see an opportunity there and there's a
discussion as to we cannot do everything.

We have to prioritize what we're doing.

And suddenly, if you have a bit
of data supporting your point of

view, that I think here's where
could make a bit more impact.

Maybe you're not gonna use that to design
based off of it, but you're gonna use

that to back you up in that we need
to figure out in this corner of the

product what else we could do better.

Vuokko: For sure.

Yeah, I think I like evidence based
decision making is so important.

We can also use, use data in a way where
we trial if a direction is correct.

So I think if we, I think the
best designers can think of like

a bigger vision and then break
it down to smaller steps to test

and find the right path forward.

So I think we can use data in that
way where we build something and

then learn and use that to guide us.

So there's something there for sure.

Christian: Changing gears a little
bit into sort of your career, but

also where you are right now and
the impact you're having on Monzo

and how you're shaping your teams.

I think there are sort of
three, three topics into one.

We'll go, We'll go one by one, but
of the things that I've read that I

think you wrote before is that you.

I like to build what you call human
moments at work and uh, you find that

to be especially important working in
remote or like Monzo Hybrid, and I'm

wondering why is that so important?

And if you can give us a
couple of examples of what

is a human moment at work?

Vuokko: Sure.

again I, I think it, there's like a
internal team lens to that and then

the customer facing product one.

I'm a big believer in having fun work
and that it's important for designers to

not hold the pencil too tight, I think if
we take work too seriously, it will not

be as creative and great as it could be.

And I think just we're all
humans with, like I mentioned,

like better days and worse.

And I think knowing that there's a team
you can rely on and work with, and that's

such a big part of, being a person.

And I think it's a it's a huge part
of what I love about Monzo and what

people I just did a session with new
joiners today, met 10 people who've

recently joined Monzo, and they were
all talking about our design community

and how great it is to work with others
who are talented and work together.

So I think that's just important to
me personally, but I think it helps

every, all of us develop and also
to know that, we're all embedded in

different parts of the I'm not, but
most other people are embedded in a

certain part of the business product.

And that's obviously one team that
people communicate with, but I

think it's so great to have this
craft-based community that we share

as a place to always come to and draw
energy and inspiration from as well.

And I do that too, , I have my exec
peers and I like being in that group

too, but it's nice to come back to design
and just be with my people . So I think

it, it really, serves a, a purpose in
actually like making the work better

and us growing as professionals, but I
think it just makes every day kind of

nicer and more more fun and relaxing.

I think just doing things
together is always better.

Then obviously also care so much about
a product that's human, that's fits

into people's lives and takes stress
away them on a human level, I think.

So we build a, we built a digital bank.

comes into the, I suppose the
stereotypical thing for people to

come into product is with anxiety or
stress, and we know that, so everything

we do is to combat that feeling.

So we try to make a experience that helps
people feel seen and understood that

it breaks things, hard d things that
maybe used to be difficult or confusing.

Makes them easy to approach,
accessible, easy to understand,

take action on, make people feel.

Confident and capable.

That's a huge part.

I think when you do anything with money,
and that's something that we focus on

as a design team in many different ways.

Christian: I've talked about this before
on a, in a different episode, that it is

difficult to be creative and to come up
with new things and design a product with

care when you're tense and when you are
not in an environment where you feel good,

whatever good means for you, that can be
different things for different people.

But having that good environment at work
is a prerequisite for then translating

your skills into a good product.

You are so on point that the
better you feel at work, the

better your work tends to be.

But you're talking about
these human moments, right?

So what are those human moments?

Is it something that you
have to do in person?

Is it something you do online?

Typically, what would one of
these human moments look like?

Vuokko: I think we have human
moments on online and in person.

So I would say every day we have many
design channels of different kinds,

we have a one just for team chat.

And in that channel, someone starts a
good morning thread and we all say hi.

And like, how will you know,
didn't sleep 'cause my baby was

up, or I'm excited 'cause today I'm
doing this piece of research or.

I'm just back from my travels.

So I feel like that's a really nice,
keep your finger on the pulse of how

everyone's doing and it feel like
you've all shown up to work together,

even though some people are based in
even a different country or a different

part of the different part of the uk.

that, I think just those it's so simple,
but I think it helps us all feel connected

we've all, we've been doing that forever.

We used to even say bye after
we, when we were leaving work,

but I think that's fallen enough.

But I, but the Good Morning
thread is still, it's a feel good

part of how we collaborate and
then many other things online.

But I would say, there's no substitute
actually spending time together as well.

But we are now a team of a
hundred across all of the uk,

across a few countries as well.

So I would say it's not easy
to come together all the

time, and I think that's okay.

but what we're still hung onto is
every three months we do a team day

where everyone comes to London for
a day and we use that kind of a full

day to, spend time together, workshop
something, not necessarily to come up

with the best solutions to a thing,
but to energy working on it together

and get different perspectives and
then have a social in the evening.

So I think that kind of in-person
time is also important and I

think remote culture, I feel like
we found a good balance at Monzo.

We used to do, I remember this is
way back, but we had work from home

Fridays before the pandemic, so I
think we were pretty well set to start

working fully remotely for a few years.

And now we honestly have a
pretty rich office culture too.

And we have a design area.

People sit with their
squads or with designers.

Bit of both.

I personally with hundreds or thousands
of people, I find it nice to go to the

office because I can run into people
and have quick chats I would never have

time to schedule time with everyone.

But that's just a part of it.

And I really wanna make sure
that I'm also spending time on

with the team on like digitally.

I think it needs to be a mix.

Christian: Having worked remotely for
almost eight years now, since before

the pandemic, the, even for a raging
introvert who likes to be here at home

between my four walls, I can uh, attest
to the fact that if you every three

months see your team for just one day,
that fills you up with enough energy.

But it's not only about energy, it's
just about humanizing everyone else

that you see in 2D behind the screen.

So I even say to people when I
come to the office, just so you

know, I'm not gonna do any work
because I, I get easily distracted

and I don't see people in person.

And now when I do, I'm going
to take advantage of it.

So we're gonna for lunch and
we're chatting and I chat nine

hours out of eight or however
many are meant to be at work.

And then you come back home
and for the next few weeks.

feels a bit different just because
you've managed to connect with

the people that you're actually
working with on a daily basis.

You managed to connect at a
different level physically in

the, in, in the same environment.

So I quite like that.

I was having a thought about
this as you were talking.

Do you think that remote
work has changed the way that

designers learn from one another?

I'm thinking, I'm thinking, when I
started out as a junior designer, I

learned a lot by just watching what others
are doing as learning by observation.

And now that's not always as easy.

especially if you're fully
remote it's probably really

difficult, but even hybrid, right?

You're not over someone's shoulders
five days a week or you can

just watch what they're doing.

Do you have any thoughts about that?

Vuokko: Yeah, I thought I, you know what?

I have thought about it because I think
the way I learned the design craft,

and product craft also I can track back
down to like sitting next to someone

who was great at it and watching their
screen as they work or hearing them

talk about it or asking questions.

And that's kind of a world
that doesn't exist anymore.

Mostly even.

Monzo's hybrid.

There are some good pairs actually
at Monzo and good um, relationships

that do kind of work that way.

But we've lost that, but makes it all
the more important to share, design,

process decisions, all of these things
on Slack, on whatever tools you'd use.

And then I think, I
guess nothing stopping.

Sometimes we do pair designing,
join a call and design

together, do things like this.

So I think there are still ways to do
it, but it takes a bit more effort.

It's not as automatic.

I do think design is kind of a
apprenticeship type in a way.

Obviously you can learn and
you can learn it on your own.

Many people do, but.

There's something about
learning from someone right?

Christian: I was thinking
about this as well.

I think over the past few years,
maybe a decade or so, design has

become more of a business discipline
than a creative discipline.

The reason I'm this thought got spark into
my head is because you said this is a type

of craft that's best learned in person.

if You wanna watch someone shape
a piece of furniture YouTube is.

Probably not gonna do it as well
as someone who's done it for 40

years can walk you through it and
show you and you can touch it.

And I think for many years
there's been this parallel

drawn between that and design.

it's a creative field.

There's a lot about craft.

It's something that you learn that
maybe can be passed on, maybe not.

But I'm wondering, over the past
many years, it's become so much

of a business discipline, hence
design with business the name.

So there you go.

Yeah.

Closing a loop there.

and my assumption is that's something
that's much easier to learn from courses,

tutorials, talking to others, whatever.

'cause it's so much more, it's
just not necessarily that creative.

It's pretty clear.

It's.

Mathematics is one plus, one is two, is
here's what this graph is showing you.

Here's analytics, here's how this connects
to the CPA or LTV or whatever it may be.

So I'm wondering if that has changed,
if the need to learn the way we used to

learn before is not there anymore because
what we're doing now is different than

what we was about 15 to 20 years ago.

Vuokko: Agree That design has become
much more of a business function.

I think certainly at Monzo, we know how
to connect the dots and say how design has

impacted growth and revenue, sustainable
revenue, all of this . I do think though

there's the more predictable solution
but then again, the best design is always

somewhat of a black box where you, it
is kind of, uh, asymmetric outputs.

you don't exactly know what's gonna
come out the other side, which, what

makes it scary to some people, I think
and such an opportunity and why design

can create outsized value . I do think
there's probably some sort of more of

a craft element there that maybe goes
overlooked or that not every business

is harnessing I think if you aim for
linear growth and expected results,

then I think that can be, you can play
it safe and it's, more in the world

of how other business functions work.

But I do think if you wanna create
something brand new and potentially

transform a business, then probably
takes some sort of leap of faith

almost, or more of a creative leap.

Christian: Yeah, and we're
talking a lot these days about.

revival of craft, right?

And how important that
perhaps is starting to become.

I think with some of these maybe a
bit more straightforward skills that

you might not even need in the future.

You need a piece of analytics.

Now you have AI that can more or less do
it for you, 80, 90% of what you could do.

But it can do it so much faster, right?

So perhaps the differentiator in what
we're gonna be able to continue doing

well is craft and taste and closing the
gap between what is good, which a lot of

people are, can come up with to what is
great, which is much more difficult to do.

closing the loop on these magic
moments that we were talking about,

Monzo magic moments, I think is very
unlikely that AI, for example, could

come up with some one of these, you
know, pay people a day earlier, but let

them drag a thing on a screen, right?

That is just such a human.

Moment that you want to create and you can
create it because you are a human yourself

and you know how it would feel like to get
paid a day earlier with this little quirky

interaction and confetti and all that.

So I think yeah, it's all tying back
to craft and, and the importance

of that and the renaissance of it.

Vuokko: I, I think so.

I think really connecting to, people's
lives and emotions and kind of those

expected moments to surprise with
something that's e either meets

a need better than people were
expecting, or it just goes beyond.

And I do think like with AI, it is so
easy now to create like a seven out of

10 experience that's exactly as expected.

Tick all the boxes, but then to go
beyond it, that takes a lot of craft and

creativity to go beyond what you can get
from just combining what already exists,

but really trying to push the boundaries
of, of taste or what could exist.

And I guess that's what we hopefully
will become bigger and bigger experts in.

Christian: Yeah, this reminds
me of the impact Canva had on

the graphic design industry.

Canva came around, all designers
lost their marbles thinking, oh

my God, what's gonna happen now?

And it has had an impact.

And if you look around on social media,
it is so easy, to create a good post.

Because there are templates and
they're there 'cause they work

before and they look decent.

I don't need to be a designer to do
one of these, all of that good stuff.

Yet there is still a class of its
own above that, that still exists.

It's better than what the
highest class was before Canva.

'cause now Canva has democratized
everyone can be good enough, but there's

still a class above, which is great.

So I think it's the same thing you
said is AI might generate something

that is just a baseline expectation.

I think there's a space for that in,
in that it'll again, democratize access

to some of these tools and to design.

It's gonna allow a startup founder
somewhere in the world who can't

afford to hire a designer to put a
prototype together, a prototype that's

just good enough to show investors.

But I do think that once the investors
come in, they say, here's the money.

you need to do something great with it.

I do think that's where we still come in.

Vuokko: Yeah, I agree.

And Canva is a great tool and it, I It's
great that we can democratize design and

making the world a better place as well.

But yeah, I agree.

There's always going to be room for
people who push the industry, the

taste level, the boundaries forward.

And I guess this has always been the case.

If I think way back there's always some
form of visual communication or whatever

kind of artifacts that are scarce and that
communicate value and a higher status.

So it used to be photography
that used to be scarce.

And if you had photography on a
website, they'd invested in it.

And then photography
actually became really cheap.

And then I feel like
illustration became the thing.

And then suddenly like
illustration looked cheap.

And then illustration became like the
this, now they're really invested and

this communicates quality and scarceness.

And we've moved past that now too,
because AI creates 3D for free.

Now it's about other things and texture
and like what the actual message messages.

And there's different aspects to
this, but I think we'll always

continue the race of what's easy
and cheap for anyone to create.

And what's beyond it.

Christian: If we were to sit here in 10
years and you'd say to me, Christian,

this last decade in design has been
just phenomenal, what would have

had to happen for you to say that?

Vuokko: I think, and I hope
that people will still care

about experience and quality.

I do think one part of AI is, becoming
mainstream, is that a lot of things

probably will become just functional.

Like, this is now done for me.

I don't even think about it.

So I don't think every single
experience, every single part of your

life will become a brand you deeply
care about, but I hope there will be

some and people will still value that.

I'm a big fan of both design and
technology and I think big part

of my career has been building
for touchscreens mobile devices.

I think I'd love for us to still have
that, but to also move beyond phone

addiction and into more, contextual
spaces and voice and different

kinds of interaction paradigms.

maybe something more immersive.

I think that'd be a very exciting decade
to explore, to kind flat screen and

into some, new dimensions, literally.

Christian: Maybe this new device
that OpenAI is working on is a thing.

Who knows?

Vuokko: Yeah.

Who knows?

I'm excited though.

Christian: Yeah, for sure.

There is one more topic that I'd like
to talk to you about something that

I've noticed looking at your career arc,
obviously you've been with Monzo, like

you said earlier, for almost nine years.

It's a long time to be with a company.

But besides that, one of the things
that stands out very obviously is that

every two years or so you're getting a
promotion you're moving a step higher up.

Now, obviously, I'm sure that part of
that has to do with the timing, the

fact that Monzo grew alongside you
or rather, or the other way around.

I don't know, you grew alongside
Monzo over the past, almost a decade.

let's put that aside for the sake of this.

'cause that's not something that
someone listening can reproduce.

You end up where you end up, you
work for a company that you work for.

So putting that aside and talking
about what was directly within your

control, why do you think, or what
do you think you did right at each of

those stages to join as a lead designer
and now you're a chief design officer?

I.

Vuokko: Sure I don't wanna dwell
too long on the Monzo has scaled

a lot and I've scaled with it,
but I do think not automatic.

I think I have also played a big
part in growing Monzo and like

pushing the scaling aspect of it.

But then obviously Monzo's
growth has afforded me these

opportunities to scale myself.

And I think I was probably ready from all
the experience I had from before to then.

There were all these parts of me
that like hadn't been lit up before

Monzo scaled, and I was able to keep
switching those things on and learn.

So it's not an easy experience in any
way to, to scale with the company.

It takes a lot of, it's like very much
an emotional and skill-based journey.

But it's partly me working very
hard to grow Monzo, but also

luck . I will completely admit that.

To answer your question about growing
and taking more responsibility over

the years, I think that's probably it.

I think I've definitely, I grew up in I
feel like my whole life I've been in

new environments and been open to change
and learning and trying new things.

So I think that's a big part of growing
as a professional and leader is not

being afraid of something you haven't
done before, is if there is a new

opportunity to sign up for it, or be
the person who takes responsibility and

then does it even if it's uncomfortable.

So I think part of it's me continuing
to out there, even if I've not done it

before and feel like I'll take this on.

And I guess obviously that's become easier
over the years as I've now like a very

tenured person, and have had experience
through all these different phases, but.

I guess something I've done all along and
what's been important, I think I've had

a few great mentors and something that
I've learned from them is to be clear

with myself, what is it that I uniquely
bring to a team or a room, and what's

my skillset that others don't have?

If it's a multidisciplinary group or
it's a group of designers what is it

that I can uniquely bring and then
bring that, because often obviously

like diverse teams in different
ways of perspectives and skills and

all of this reach better results.

So if you bring something, then
others don't, then they will invite

you along again, because everyone
wants to be part of success.

And if you help make that happen,
then they, you will get invited

to the next and the next thing.

So in a way, it's been a long
chain of being uncomfortable and

doing the next thing and the next.

And then I think being open to learning
and collaborating, learning from others.

and also have being lucky to work
with some great people who I've

gotten to learn from for sure.

I think there's been a few different
phases of Monzo when you think about

being an early stage startup and kind
of everyone learning from each other to

then at some point we hired world class
executives and I got to work with them and

then I've also been able to learn how to
lead bigger and bigger teams from them.

So I think it's just being open
to all the different dimensions

of learning, to be honest.

Christian: It sounds like there's a
lot of reinventing that you have to do.

Every time you go onto a new level,
you are becoming a different, not

a different person, but at work.

Yeah.

There are suddenly new
responsibilities that you're having.

New people that you might
have reporting to you.

What are some of these habits or
maybe mindsets that you've had to

change that helped you transition
from an individual contributor?

'cause when you joined Monzo you, you
know, as a lead designer, you probably

were more of an individual contributor
to becoming a, an organizational leader.

What were some of these
changes you've had to make?

Vuokko: Yeah, I, I was very much a
individual contributor when I, I joined

and then started managing people who
joined after me and figuring all of

that out, how to build a team and design
critiques and culture and then keep going.

And I think everything breaks
every five to 10 people who join.

And you just have to figure out the next
step of how a team can best work together.

So obviously going from leading myself
to then helping a handful of other people

do great work, make great decisions,
grow their confidence, become performing

designers of their own to then.

Leading like a bigger
team and multiple teams.

And then at some point leading the design
leadership team and hiring great leaders

who can make great decisions of their own.

And at this point I would say I work
in a company leadership, product

leadership, design leadership.

I do actually remember the point where
I realized I'm, cross-disciplinary

efforts and I'm it's no longer
just about design, but the actual

outcome of everything we do.

That's a pretty fun new place
to be, but you definitely have

to let go of designer mindset.

First of all, honor what you,
what is it that you bring as a

designer, but then collaborate in
a way that you're all driving the

same results above everything else.

Christian: If you are sitting at the
edge of a promotion or something like

that, you think I'm about to get to,
I feel I'm ready for the next level.

I feel I'm ready for more responsibility.

What's the best way of putting your best
foot forward and say, I think I'm ready.

Do you bring any evidence to the table?

Do you work with your manager
to coach you through this?

What's the best way for someone listening,
sitting at that edge where they think

it's about time but it's not happening?

What can they do now?

Vuokko: Sure.

I think the work and the results
should speak for themselves, or I

don't think let me put it another way.

It's not about saying I could do this,
but to prove what you've already done.

I think probably most managers are afraid
to promote someone too early, even if

they're doing well at their current level.

it be a bad outcome to promote
someone too early and make them an

underperformer at the new level.

So I think it's important for people to
have that they are already doing that

next role before promotion consistently,
half a year or something like that.

So I think it's bringing
evidence of that to the table.

Maybe your manager sees it all and
that's like, just nothing that you

need to do, or maybe it's on you join
the dots and bring the role that you

played into light and connect those
dots and say, this was a big gap and a

problem and this was the role I played.

And all the, maybe the more invisible
ways that you've worked and connected

teams and led things that might
not be obvious to a manager who

has a lot of other things going on.

obviously at some level it really.

Is about the product outcomes, the
business results like, so it has

to tie into that, through what did
you uniquely bring that wouldn't

have happened if you weren't there.

And then really, on what, what you
uniquely brought us is very important.

Christian: I think I've never
thought about that point.

It's such a good point of most managers
don't wanna promote someone too early

because then there's the risk of a.

Of them underperforming.

And I guess what you're saying
is, or or maybe the thinking is,

I feel I'm at the edge of that.

I deserve, I, I think I deserve
to go to the new next level.

What you are saying is I've already been
at that level for six months or whatever.

Therefore I think now I
deserve the promotion.

Vuokko: Yes,

Christian: It's a bit,

Vuokko: it's uh, it's always, it is great
when it comes from the person themselves

because if they express it, then I think
it's a lot more clear that they know

what that level entails and what goes
into it and what success looks like.

So I able to express why you've
already done it, then it means

you also know what it takes.

Christian: for sure.

And you're able to put your
manager's mind at ease that you're

not gonna be underperforming,
that it hasn't been too early.

Is this something that should come
from you as a designer or is that

something that should come from your
manager or is that something that

you should discuss with your manager,
Hey, I'm thinking of getting to

the next level over the past year.

What do I have to do over the next
year to, to convince you in a year's

time that it's time to get a promotion?

Vuokko: I think it's always good to
be proactive and talk about what your

goals and dreams are and motivations.

I think might be so obvious to an
individual designer, but not necessarily

to the manager what they actually, what
really matters to them and what timeline.

And I think it, it can
really depend as well.

I feel like, I think the manager should
know you're really motivated and are

willing to put the work in to get to
that next level and then together,

discuss what that looks like and kind
of what like a star performance would

look like and what, I think it's
good to get clarity, not I, yeah.

I think promotions are always difficult
if it's right on the edge and yet yeah,

maybe, but then what if it's too early?

So I think it's important to talk about
what great looks like on the next level.

Christian: Yeah, I think
it's something to stress.

Is that promotions are such a
sensitive topic and I think a lot

of designers think, and I used to
think that I'm just gonna do my

work and someone will notice me.

It's a bit more nuanced than that.

You have to have the conversation.

You have to work together with
your manager or stakeholders around

the business to prepare your lead
into the next role, if you will.

Vuokko: Yeah, and I think many
designers are definitely too humble,

and I don't think there's anything
wrong about talking about what you're

aiming to do and what you'd like to
achieve and, and talk about that.

And I think we have to talk about
what role we've played and what

we've done no one's gonna do that
for you, or maybe your manager will,

but honestly, I don't think it needs
to be their responsibility solely.

Another thing to talk with, like a
manager I think if you think about a

team, and there are other people who
maybe are on the next level, they

might have different strengths than you.

I think that's another great conversation
to have, is to not assume that a person

who's already at the next level is
exactly what that level must look like.

Because as speaking as someone who
leads a big team with many different

types of designers and personalities
and types of expertise, people are on

the same level and widely different
superpowers I like to call 'em.

And I think that's good because
we're building a team that

should be very strong together.

So it's great actually that
people have different specialisms.

So I think if there's something that
you think that you're specifically

good at, like maybe what's a way
to dial that up and bring more of

that into the work that you do.

Or maybe it's a different type of project
or something you'd like to build on.

I think often people when they're
like developing in their career,

focus on fixing their weaknesses,
which obviously to a point we all

should have a baseline level of skills
across, the spider chart, let's say.

But I think as you grow in your.

Career.

At some point it becomes about
your strengths more than you.

You're never gonna be
equally good at everything.

And if you think about the CEO of the
world's largest company, if you think

about, anyone who's had success in their
career, they're not good at everything.

They're uniquely good at one or a few
things that are valuable to that business.

And I think knowing what those are and
then being able to build those are is

great, especially as you grow because
some point there will be something

that only you can do and that there's
no more valuable thing than that.

Christian: Vuokko, we have a
tradition at the end of the podcast.

I ask all the guests in the
season the same two questions.

Now is your third.

The first one is, where do you look
for inspiration in your day to day?

Vuokko: I hate to be a person who
says everywhere, but I really,

I'm like a very curious person.

I feel like I travel a lot and take
photos and get inspired by nature and

cities and urban environments and clothes.

I studied fashion design a
little on the side few years ago.

I thought that gave me
so much more inspiration.

my partner works in the arts, so
I think I have a good mix of like

high brow, low brow interests.

I like video games and comic books and
actually going to museums and everything.

I think when you're a designer, it's such
a, a gift and a curse that everything

around us has been designed by someone and
they've either done a great job or not,

but you can really study anything look
at it and think what did, what were they

trying to achieve and did they do that?

I dunno, I feel like.

bad to mention anything because
I, I would love a Pokemon card

and a work of literature equally,

Christian: Cool.

And uh, the other one is, what's
something that you believe AI will not

be good at, and therefore designers
could or should double down on.

Vuokko: I guess we had already talked
about that and everyone says taste,

but I do think AI is getting better.

Obviously we've all seen like
the videos that AI could create

a few years ago versus today.

I think things are already pretty good.

I think they will get great, but
what AI does is combine everything

that already exists and makes
kind of new combinations of that.

So I think it leads towards the average.

So I think what humans can do is.

Stretch the boundaries of what's
possible and bring the real bold,

unexpected type of creativity.

So I think pushing the boundaries
of taste and types of solutions is

where humans will still play a role.

I think.

Christian: Well, We never know,
but it's uh, what do you think with

the information we have right now?

that's as good as it gets.

Vuokko Where can people get in
touch with you, find out more about

you, stay up to date with what
you're doing, all that good stuff?

Vuokko: I am on LinkedIn, although
I have to say, I get overwhelming

amount of messages on there.

So if I'm slow to respond or
even if I don't, sometimes

please don't take it personally.

But I am on there and I would
love to hear from people.

And Mon zo.com.

We are expanding and doing more
things, hiring also across all roles.

And we recently wrote a book with Penguin.

It's called The Book of Money,
and it's been really a wholesome

project and really great.

It's a, a book that teaches you to
make better decisions about money.

It's not a book about Monzo.

We just wanted to help people and all the
money we make from it is going to charity.

Pretty sure it's available
outside of the UK too, by Penguin.

Christian: is really cool.

I did not know about that.

I gotta check that out.

That's sounds such a cool side project.

I remember Stripe, I think it was did
something like that a few years ago where

they had Stripe Press or Stripe books or
something like that where they were just

publish publishing books for this funnel.

It wasn't it.

Vuokko: what?

Yeah.

What a great craft-based
team that is as well.

Christian: Yes, for sure.

Vuokko: This book I have here, it's
um, the Making of Prince of Persia,

the video game in the eighties.

It's a

Christian: Right.

Vuokko: From Stripe Press.

Christian: I is from Stripers as well.

That's nice.

This has been such a pleasure.

Thank you so much for being
on Design Meets Business.

Vuokko: Yeah, thanks for having me.