Design Meets Business

Christian: Andrea, it's a pleasure
to have you on Design Meets Business.

Welcome.

You have led design teams at household
names like Adobe and Autodesk and

Netflix, and most recently you've
been with Shopify, where you

oversaw design and creative across
multiple parts of the business.

It's a journey through some of the
world's most design driven companies,

and we are going to explore that today.

We're gonna explore that
journey together with you.

But before that, could you share a
bit about how your path in design

led you to where you are today?

Andrea: Sure.

Hi.

And thank you for having me on.

It's a privilege.

I started my career a bit accidentally.

I started at Adobe largely as a user.

Um, I had the opportunity to
come as really a summer job

and helped test Photoshop.

I was a little graphic designer,
baby graphic designer, playing with

Photoshop and a friend of mine,
I, I had the privilege of growing

up in the San Francisco Bay area.

So it was pretty easy to get in
places 'cause they were just.

Around.

A friend of mine was working at Adobe
on the Photoshop team, and she was

like, Hey, quit your restaurant job.

You can make really good money and
really normal hours and come and

work at Adobe working on Photoshop.

And back in, in those days,
they were very long days ago,

I won't tell you how old I am.

Really, companies had kind
of two jobs in software.

There were people who represented the
user and could help figure out how

the thing should work, and there were
engineers who could write the code.

And I was at that point kind of a user
representative because I was using

the product and, um, in my personal
kind of graphic design and artwork.

And so I, got into software
by using software and testing

software very quickly.

The engineers I was working with
got irritated with me because

the test cases that I was running
and the bugs I was writing.

Felt more like designs than they did bugs.

So at one point the team that was
building the product came to me and

said, I think we think you might prefer
to design the product because you

clearly are pushing it in directions
that are not what we had intended.

And so uh, was a very
strange way into design.

I originally had studied
sociology and art.

User experience.

Design wasn't a thing back then.

I was doing graphic design on the
side for a bit of extra money because

I had computers and we all did.

But I really fell into this industry as
a complete luck of where I grew up, who I

knew, and what things I was interested in.

It's really been a story of continue to
walk through open doors, even if they seem

like a side door or a cracked window, like
seek change, seek opportunity, and don't

worry too much about having a plan because
you can't plan anything in technology.

You just have to seek
opportunities and go for them

. Christian: Especially in these days,
you really can't plan anything.

It's six months down the line.

Maybe we know, but we don't know, five
years down the line, what's gonna happen,

because of the advancements in technology.

I love that idea of continue
to walk through open doors.

It was a couple of other examples in
your career where just walking or, or, or

rather through a window that was barely
open and you took that opportunity and run

with it and it turned into something good.

Give us a couple more examples.

Andrea: Well, It's funny, in, we
always talk so much about imposter

syndrome in this industry, right?

Everyone's feeling imposter syndrome.

And I would almost say where it is a badge
of honor, because we are all figuring

out something that hasn't been done.

Like if you're doing something that's
already been done, it's not designed,

you're not building anything new So that's
the whole idea , nobody, knows the script.

Nobody has already perfected it or it
wouldn't be worth doing to begin with.

, I spent a big chunk of my
career, my early career at Adobe.

And what was really interesting about
that was I had the opportunity to

design for people who made things like
designed for designers and designed

for industries that were being
completely transformed by technology.

When I started at Adobe, people were
freaking out about traditional publishing

and traditional filmmaking and traditional
photography going away , because of

digital platforms, because of the
internet, because of digital cameras.

And those things didn't go away,
but they did transform and lots

of new jobs were created and
lots of old jobs were challenged.

And so I rode one of those
early technology waves, out at

this really incredible company.

And I would say about a.

Eight years in, and eight years seems
like a super long time now at the speed

we all move, but at the time we didn't
all realize how quickly technology

turn and burn cycle was gonna go.

I started to realize that like I
could either spend my whole career

there or I could force myself to do
something uncomfortable and shift.

And it took me a little while to
get the courage to do it because

I was like, this is a great job.

Why would I ever leave?

Why would you leave a great job
doing these interesting things

for all these interesting people?

But years 10, 11, 12 weren't gonna
look any different from 7, 8, 9, right?

It would just be incrementally
more of the same.

And so I decided to try
to go do something harder.

I needed to recapture that sense of
like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this.

This is so hard.

And so I shifted into what I felt
like was a harder set of problems.

Like I, I was really interested
in design and I was really

interested in the practice of
making things using technology.

But we 2D designed at the time,
like, publishing things that exist

on a flat plane were, was pretty
solved, at least from the, from

the tools of that era perspective.

What wasn't totally solved was
3D was designing for the physical

world, was designing buildings and
airports and physical products.

Like that stuff was still
living on PCs and CAD systems.

It hadn't had a cloud revolution yet.

And those were very interesting
and hard work problems.

It's a harder interface design to do.

And I wanted to get into
harder and harder work.

And I like tools.

I think tools design is really neat.

I think designing for people who
make things is very cool, niche.

And so, took a leap into something that
I didn't understand, hadn't spent my

career practicing that form of design, so
I didn't feel as deeply familiar with it.

And jumped in.

you know, there was a pretty good
chance that I would crash out of that,

like that, that I would just not fit.

Luckily for me, what that company
realized right around that time was

they needed to figure out the internet.

They needed to figure out how to get
mobile patterns working for people who

are marking up architecture drawings.

They needed to figure out how to shift to
design systems and building for the cloud.

I mean, those are all very old,
boring topics for us now in 2025.

But in 2011, that was new
or at least new for them.

So I had the opportunity, to bring some
of the stuff that felt like it would

make me stick out, like felt like I
wouldn't belong, and it actually helped

me lead well in that environment.

Christian: You said that moving
from Adobe to Autodesk was a

hard thing to do, uncomfortable.

You left a good job behind to go and
do this other thing that had a not an

insignificant chance of not going well.

Where is that coming from?

Where's that need of putting
yourself in these situations

and doing the hard things?

Is that a principle of yours
or where's it coming from?

Andrea: I wish I could say it
had been a principle of mine.

I think I would have changed jobs
a few more times in my early career

if it had been, I started my career
not knowing what I was doing, maybe

thinking this was just a job I was
doing till I figured something else out.

I really didn't have a, a plan.

So I just felt lucky to be doing
something fun with fun tools, with fun

people for what felt like good reasons.

I think the principle that
ended up emerging for me

over time was, am I growing?

But growing in how I can stretch.

What can I stretch to do?

What can I stretch to become?

Am I around people that energize me,
that challenge me, that I respect

and that respect me in return?

Am I in a good environment
for me as a human being?

And am I being professionally rewarded
in a way that feels equitable for my

time?

those are all kind of like the
three principles that emerged

for me in my early career.

And when I looked at Adobe
everything about Adobe was fabulous

except for the growing part.

, And Adobe was a lovely place
and I, I was very loyal.

I would probably have had a space
there, but it wasn't a space that was

too big for me to know how to fill.

And I think growth isn't just
about hard things you're doing.

It's almost about can you, is the space
you're in, scarily a little too large?

Like, are you not really sure how
you're gonna stretch to fill it?

And that wouldn't have
been true for me there.

And so I didn't know if that would
be a one-time thing or if this

was gonna be an ongoing thing.

But I also agreed, and I got a
coach at this point in my career.

My coach and I agreed that I would
re-ask myself those questions every

year of my career going forward
because, sometimes you don't feel

like growing and being challenged.

Sometimes People step away.

They have children, they have
personal things going on, like not,

you're not always in growth mode.

Let's be realistic, but at least once a
year, I think you need to ign up for the

gig and the gig needs to ign up for you.

Um, and so I'd say that was kind of
the set of principles I eventually

learned that I should use to guide my
choices about where I invest and what

I want in return for my investment.

And a paycheck is great.

We all need a paycheck, but a
paycheck is the base minimum

table stakes, What a career is
built on is more than a paycheck.

And I think it's that I'm so engaged in
trying to figure out if I can do this

hard thing that I actually couldn't
dream of anything else right now, it's

occupying my full mind, and if that's not
true, then you're probably not growing.

Christian: So if you're a designer
now sitting in a team, you've been

there for a little while, or maybe
you've been there for a short while,

timing is not always what decides
whether you're still growing or not.

But there is, I think, a, a
correlation there sometimes.

And you think.

I'm not entirely sure whether
I'm still growing or not.

I'm not entirely sure whether
I'm uncomfortable or not.

What are some signs you would look for?

Is it you, I think you mentioned
earlier, being scared a little bit

of how am I gonna get this done?

Is that the type of sign you might be
looking for as a, designer, product

manager, whatever it may be to start
wondering, Hmm, maybe, maybe I'm not

growing anymore, but if I'm, if I'm
coming to work and super comfortable every

single day and I know how to crush every
single project, this is perhaps a sign.

Or is there anything else there
that you could, um, come up with?

Andrea: Yeah, I mean, I think what you
just said, I'm coming to work every day.

Nothing is a surprise.

I know how to crush it.

I mean, and, and it feels good to show
up and know how to crush it, by the way.

So like that's an okay
thing to sit with for a bit.

But I wouldn't sit with it for too long.

So I think it is like, am I at all
nervous about how I'm gonna nail this?

Do I feel inspired or challenged by
the people around me is another one.

Like, we're not, I know we're so in
love with the myth of the solopreneur,

the hero, CEO founder, like we're
very individualistically oriented in

our tech culture right now and, and
in American business culture broadly.

But that's a lie because
people don't do this alone.

These are teams for the most part, we work
with other people, even tiny companies.

We work with other people, and
even if we don't , we create

things for other people, right?

So it's like if the people in your
equation aren't firing you up in ways

that inspire and challenge you and check
you, , you're probably not growing.

If everyone, if, if you don't respect the
people around you and you're the smartest

person in the room, get a better room.

Christian: Yeah.

Find another place where you're
not the smartest in the room.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andrea: yeah, for real.

Christian: I'm trying to tie a
few of these threads here into

something you've mentioned earlier,
which is a imposter syndrome.

And I wrote something a couple
of years ago now, and I'm curious

what you think about this.

I'm, I'm not gonna pull it up and read it,
but I'm just gonna give you the gist of

it and I'm curious if you agree with this.

So, because imposter syndrome is
discussed so often as a negative thing,

as something that you need to deal
with, and I like to look at things from

a bit of a different angle and see is
there any way you can reframe this?

And after thinking about imposter
syndrome for a while and looking at my

own career, I've seen a pattern, which is
that I only felt imposter syndrome when

I was at the edge of my comfort zone,
but not too far out of my comfort zone.

That I didn't think I could make it.

So an example that I use in the article
is, if you would put me right now

in a room with the smartest rocket
engineers in the world, I wouldn't

feel imposter syndrome because I would
just know that I, I, I would just

know I'm, I, I do not belong here.

There's the imposter syndrome for what?

I cannot design a rocket,
imposter syndrome.

You feel it when you're in a
situation where you think I'm close.

I could, I'm a bit uncomfortable, but
it, this is not a monumental task.

My conclusion was that imposter syndrome
is actually, you call it a badge of honor.

I I call it, um, sort sort of similar
in a similar way a sign that you are

actually in the right place and that
you're stretching yourself just in

the right manner, but not too thin.

What are your thoughts about that?

Andrea: I mean, we've chosen two
words that are negative, right?

We've chosen imposter, which
has a negative connotation.

It means that you're a fake.

It means that you're pretending
to be something you aren't.

It means that you're a fraud.

These are very painful, toxic, wounding
words, and then syndrome, which means it's

a pathology, which is to be eliminated
so like so as designers, I think we

should maybe examine the packages.

We wrap ideas in.

Imposter syndrome is a very ne negative
package for what I think is potentially

a very instructive and useful idea.

I think when you are in a space that you
are discovering the edges of, first of

all, if you don't believe that something
is possible to make better, you're

probably more of a critic than a designer.

designers have to be
optimistically dissatisfied, right?

We're curious.

We're a little bit nuts because we
believe the world could be just a little

bit better, a little more useful, more
beautiful, more functional, faster,

cheaper, whatever it is, right?

And we have to have enough in, of an
internal core of self-confidence but we

have to also be humble enough to know that
the world is incredibly hard to change.

There's something going on here,
which is that artists, and we're all

many of us secret artists or failed
artists, or not quite artists that

could make a living in art artists.

I think we all have a core of insecurity.

There's nothing more
painful than the blank page.

There's nothing that makes me cringe
harder than, you know, my portfolio.

You, I'm sure all of us, right?

Like we all share that that's real.

And yet we end up in these places where
we have to pretend to be more confident

than we are in order to like gain
the courage to go after the problem.

And so like, I think that's a, an
essential experience of design.

what you're describing with this
thing we've all given a very negative

brand to is actually the experience
that we all share as designers, which

is we have this core of insecurity,
which is comes from the arts.

We have a healthy dose of skepticism
that anything can be made better and

we're also not egotists . And so like
respect for the challenge and humility

to know that like it might take a lot
of, goes at it before we get anywhere

that we're proud of isn't a bad thing
that makes us not designers and it's

not a syndrome to be eliminated.

It's descriptive of what we do and
what it feels like when we're doing it.

Christian: Such a good observation that
we've given these two words that are

so negative and we might want to try to
rephrase that into, I'm just at the edge

of my comfort zone, which is generally has
a better connotation than I'm an imposter.

And there's this syndrome.

So that is an observation that,
uh, I haven't heard of before.

Talking about comfort and
doing hard things and feeling

this edge of the comfort zone
rather than imposter syndrome.

Let's say you're a designer,
you're at work now and, um, maybe

you haven't felt that in a while.

Maybe you are a bit comfortable,
maybe you're crushing all of it.

At the same time, you might say,
I don't wanna leave this job.

I like this job.

I like the people I work with.

I feel valued here.

I feel appreciated here.

But I seek that growth, which I think
oftentimes is, um, for some people

I can relate to that it's just such
an innate characteristic that you

just, you can't just get rid of it.

It's like the need to drink water.

It is just there at all times.

How do you marry the fact that you are
in a job where you're comfortable and you

wanna stay there, but you're not growing?

Andrea: I think it takes courage.

And so it takes courage to ask yourself if
you'd rather be a comfortable employee or.

A growing designer, I don't
think design is a stable form

of employment, first of all.

And I think we get ourselves tied to
knots when we think that it's we make,

we build, we ship, we learn, we grow.

That isn't always con consistent
with like stable careers that

last decades in one company.

And so at certain points we sort of have
to ask ourselves, is it more important

for me to be an employee given that being
an employee might actually make the next

time I'm called to grow that much harder?

'cause I haven't been keeping up
with being a growing designer.

Or am I more committed to like
building, growing, learning, making?

And am I keeping up with the pace
of the medium that I work in?

And then those of us that work on the
internet, the pace of the medium is fast.

Many companies are slow.

So for a designer that finds themselves
there, but for human reasons, let's

say, okay, I need to support my family.

Like there's other things that
go into employment, right?

I would say two things.

One side projects there is nothing
keeping you in a job where you're

not challenged and growing, but
for financial or other reasons you

can't leave it build on the side.

The beautiful thing about the internet
right now and about AI right now is you

don't have to go and like make software
that ships and build a business on the

side, but you can make a thing that
moves and is beautiful every day of

the week in your spare time right now.

it really is incredibly accessible
to be prolific without it

having to be also your day job.

If you're committed to your own growth and
you're committed to moving with the medium

you're gonna be taking every coffee break
to like, make and play and do and learn.

So craft is there for you.

Be there for it.

And if it's not there for you in
your day job, make it your side

hustle just for yourself, and
then publish what you're doing.

So that will keep you fresh.

It will keep you in the conversation.

It will give you permission to
play with things and challenge

yourself with things that your day
job isn't challenging you with.

The next portfolio you put together
will be full of that stuff, not whatever

the hell you're doing in your day job.

And then if you're, if the environment
you're in is accommodating to this and

not every environment is, be honest,
speak up, nobody's gonna speak for you.

Tell your job that you're looking to
be more challenged than you are, that

you have more gas in the tank and you
wanna spend it on their challenges.

And that doesn't necessarily
mean, please promote me.

It means what else can I do?

I'd like to challenge myself.

Here's some things I'm doing in my
personal, my personal development.

I'd love to look for some
opportunities to apply those here.

What opportunities could we create?

often designers wait to be acknowledged,
wait to be promoted, wait to be

recognized, wait to be given something
new or innovative, or hard to do.

Speak up, ask for an opportunity.

The worst thing that could
happen is somebody will say, no.

Christian: And if they say no, then
that's also an answer in itself, isn't it?

Andrea: Exactly.

Christian: you mentioned something about
keeping up with the pace of the medium

you work in and you also have said it's a
fast pace, way faster than companies . I

know that one of the types of designers
that managed to keep up with the pace

of the medium is what we call super
ics, super individual contributors.

Used to call them senior,
now they're super, I dunno

where the name is coming from.

But anyway, the, we just make up names,

Andrea: We love branding.

Christian: Maybe that's what it is.

Yeah.

Andrea: Otherwise really, what would we
all go to conferences and talk about if

we couldn't argue about the new name of
the sub-discipline, like what would we do?

Christian: fair that is an
argument I agree with 100%.

So they've been able to keep up with the
medium they've been able to grow, they've

been able to do some of the things you've
been talking about until now, all these

staying at the edge of your comfort zone
and being uncomfortable and all of that.

And they become these super
senior individual contributors.

And you've led quite a few of them . And
I'm wondering what were some of the

common patterns that you've seen perhaps
besides the fact that they want to grow

all the time between these designers
who really, really, really stand out.

Like any environment you drop them
in, they will just stand out by

default because that's just how good
they are and that's what they do.

What are some of these patterns that we
can pull out and perhaps reverse engineer?

Andrea: Yeah.

I wanna push on seniority just
a little in this definition.

There are lots of people who've been
in craft, who've been designers for a

very long time, and they would look very
senior, but not everyone who is very

senior uses all of their expertise today.

And I think there's, that's one
difference is the people who are

themselves, very many years or decades
deep, but are working at the pace

of people today, of tools today.

They're not sitting back on the way
things were 12 years ago, back in my day.

They're not holding onto an orthodoxy
of how it should be or has been.

They're completely open
to how it could be next.

So the people who.

Have a deep pedigree so they can pattern
match lots of versions of design and

business and culture, but are not holding
onto that past and that seniority.

Instead, they're completely open
to tomorrow, every single day.

That's kind of the golden
ticket I would say.

There are more people that show up
with that who are younger, who are

not what we would consider deeply
senior than there are people who are

deeply senior who show up like that.

It's actually, I think, harder to drop
orthodoxy and drop baggage because

we build so much on the back of it.

We build how much we
charge, we build our title.

Our LinkedIn gets super long.

The people that I think Are creating
the most value are the ones who are

using the pedigree, but not leaning on
it, not using it as an excuse to not

think critically and creatively today.

Christian: So what is it there
that makes a difference then?

Is it curiosity or always wanting to be up
to date with whatever's the latest growth?

we've, we've, we've discussed that, right?

Growth is definitely one of them.

But what is it tactically?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andrea: so the, a mindset um,
there's an incredible, incredible

leader at Shopify right now.

Her name is Katerina, and she
leads the shop organization.

She gave a really amazing internal talk
about Connoisseurship as the critical

mindset for exceptional designers.

And she's a connoisseur of, design.

And she's, really brought that into
the internal lexicon at Shopify.

And I think that deserves to go further.

It is really about staying very
close to today's and tomorrow's.

Internet and digital culture while
retaining a deep pedigree in what is

and has always been true about humans
and is and has been deeply true about

culture and art, movements and fashion and
architecture and all the other adjacent

crafts that digital design lives within.

And so, becoming a connoisseur of
what you do is both about how you

open yourself to what's next, but
also how you draw on your deep roots.

And so I think there is something
there that ties, I think the best

individual contributor designers
together is they live in a space

of connoisseur, so that's one.

I think the other is pace.

The best designers are fast.

They're moving really fast.

They are not over polishing one thing.

You know, they're designing
at the speed of conversation.

they have an idea and by the end
of the day they've rendered it.

So we can talk about it.

And if there's a tool in their way that,
like they, they need to render it in

code a little bit, they figure that out.

If they need to render it in motion
a little bit, they figure that out.

I think there is a risk that we
all talk a lot about that companies

are gonna want 10 jobs in one.

They don't wanna pay 10 designers, they
want one super designer who does it all.

I can see that argument and
yes, there's something we need

to be on the lookout for there.

There's a re a way this could go poorly.

But what I actually see somebody
who can reach for all 10 of those

tools do is get their own idea out
fast so we can all talk about it.

So we can iterate again on it tomorrow
by lunchtime so we can iterate

again on it by the next evening.

Within a week of doing that, we've
moved through years of potential

work that you had to coordinate
10 people and 20 product managers

and a hundred engineers to get to.

It's that type of pace that these
folks unlock and they unlock it because

they don't have to wait to ask a
bunch of other people to coordinate.

For us to just get the idea out into
the world and what is design really,

it's getting the idea into the world so
we can talk about it and early design.

It's getting the idea into the world
so we can decide if we're gonna invest

millions and millions of dollars into
making it a real product in the world.

People who can do that and who are
like restless, as soon as the idea

is there, they need to get it out.

And then as soon as it's
out, they're not precious.

They're like, great, let's do five more.

Let's do 20 more.

The worst version of this are
divas where no one else can pair

design with them where nobody else
is good enough to work with them.

Very few of the people that I've
led and worked with look like that.

Mostly these are people that are just
deeply agitated 'cause the idea's

not out yet and very delighted.

When other designers can hop onto
the train at their speed and jam with

them, they're like jazz musicians.

They just wanna improvise and jam.

Christian: So I've taken a few notes
here and I wanna stress a couple of

things and bring them all together
and you tell me if I got it right.

You're talking about fast, but
fast not in the sense of I'm really

fast in getting a a polished idea.

Ready.

You mean fast in the sense of
I get something ready, I put it

out, we talk about it, then I take
that input, then I, I do it again.

It is this iterative process, right?

So, because I think that is so much
more approachable than saying, oh, you

just gotta be faster, doing great work.

How do you get faster doing great work
versus saying, Hey, whenever you hear the

idea or whenever you have the idea just
jump on it straight away, make it happen,

share it, and then take it from there.

So that's fast.

I heard three things.

I, I heard high agency, you heard or
you have an idea, just go and do it.

Figure it out.

Go and do it.

Don't ask for permission.

Just go and do it.

And then I've heard a word that I
absolutely love and that is jam.

And uh, and I'm not talking about the
food, although I do love that as well.

I'm talking about just jamming with other
designers like jazz, uh, musicians do,

which is, um, something that I have taken
upon maybe four or five years ago, and it

has completely changed the way I design.

I love jamming with other designers.

And the interesting part
that I have found is that.

There is a, a matter of
compatibility there as well.

Like with some designers, you jam a bit
better than with others, but being able

to be good at jamming without having that
compatibility raises you a level higher

because you're not gonna be able to ensure
compatibility with everyone in the team.

Just being able to be baseline good
at it and bringing everyone into

the process and jamming with them.

I, I think that's is really
elevating your design.

So I'm hearing fast high
agency and then collaborative.

Are these the three key words?

Andrea: Absolutely.

And I think collaborative is,
I would say collaborative.

There's a finer point here, which is
that, improvisation, which is live

collaboration is a skill in and of itself.

You can be an excellent musician, you can
be orchestral, but no, but be completely

locked up when you have to kind of go
off script and just be in the moment.

So I think this does take some practice.

and I don't think it's just with other
designers, it's actually quite fabulous

to pair with n gm with product or
marketing or customer or engineering.

And so like knowing how to get
improvisational and wield the

tools, like if it's another
designer and we're in Figma.

Thank you Figma, for real time
design canvases, by the way.

Amazing.

But . Let's say you're in a session with
someone else who doesn't wield the tool.

That's what I mean by designing
at the speed of conversation.

Your job is to bring the
conversation to life in the work.

Right now, it's interesting that the
AI tools now are also conversational

and help in how they help us
bring ideas out into even code.

But like, I think there's something
about that you're manifesting, you're

stitching it into being as it's coming
into your mind and into the conversation.

And so there's, I think
that takes a lot of reps.

If you're messing around with like, I
need, wait, how do I detach an instance?

Like if you are not on your tools,
you can't work this way, right?

And if you're locked up in process
or locked up in planning or locked up

in research, you can't work this way.

And process and planning and
research all have their places,

but often I think those places.

Interrupt this.

I think we as an industry told ourselves
for a long time that, the making of

design, that the visualization of ideas
was the cheap, was the low value part.

And it was the research, it
was the planning, it was the

structuring, it was the, I said
even the right problem to solve.

That that was the high value work.

That was the work that would get
you up the ladder, that would get

you closer to product, that would
get you closer to leadership.

And I think everything that has been going
on this last five, 10 years has completely

challenged that set of orthodoxies.

It is now the ability to rapidly
realize, not polished, but plausible.

And there's no reason something can't.

With the type of tools and design
systems we have now, there's no reason

something needs to look like a balsamic.

Like you can make 50
very beautiful things.

Doesn't mean any of them should be built,
but there's no reason to make ugly things.

Simply because like beauty
, isn't expensive anymore.

And so if you have taste and you
can move fast, you can make a very

shippable idea in an afternoon

Christian: one of the best
designers I've worked with did this.

He was great At bringing everyone
around the table around the same idea.

Some of the things you've said,
remind me of this, is he would

sit in meetings, people would talk
about people who were not designers.

They would just talk, here's what I think
we should do, here's how that could work.

In the meantime, in the background, he
just put this together and five minutes

later he would interrupt and say, sorry
just sorry to interrupt, just one second.

I wanna show you something.

And it would be right there.

And obviously it wouldn't be polished,
it would be very rough, but suddenly we

are changing the whole meeting from a
conversation in which, if I say the word

red and you say the word red, we are
probably not thinking of the same thing.

We're thinking of the color
red, but we see red differently.

Suddenly we're moving away from that
, we're all looking at the same thing

that we've kind of built together.

And now we're discussing off the back of
that and he'll do that in a few minutes.

And that was a great way of
bringing everyone together.

And it is what you're
talking about, isn't it?

Andrea: It's an incredible flex.

It's also one that's about to get
democratized, so every product

manager can now get in Vibe,
code, the thing they're thinking.

We used to all get mad when
the PMs would do a mock-up.

I think we have to forget that
everybody has access to the tools now.

So if you, the designer.

Aren't moving as fast or if not
faster, then what are you doing?

This is why I think we have to be more
nervous and more uncomfortable more

of the time because at the end of the
day, design exists in this like moving

slice of arbitrage, like this moving
slice of value difference between the

technologies that we work with and on and
the skill sets of the people around us.

And if we aren't better at wielding
those technologies with our unique skill

sets than the rest of the people in the
room around us, that's not their fault.

we have to be constantly evolving
just a little bit faster than

the medium or else, like we don't
have value to create in the room.

If you don't have value to
create in the room, like you're

not gonna be in the room.

Christian: So when we're talking about
value to create, I've been thinking about

this a lot, which is once everything
is democratized, and like you said,

a PM can come and build a prototype,
probably won't be as good as yours, but

it'll be good enough . What is there
the gap that we still have to fill?

And one of the words everyone
I talk to one of the words that

keeps coming back is craft.

Craft is the differentiator between
what we do and what others can do still.

And I'd love to talk about craft.

I know you, for example, went to
Shopify, not to lead design, but to

lead craft, which is just in itself,
just such a different framing.

So first of all, do you agree
that craft is a differentiator?

And second let's talk about leading craft
at Shopify and what that taught you and

how that is different than leading design.

Andrea: Yes.

Craft is a differentiator.

Craft though isn't one
thing at one time, right?

So craft is a moving target when your
tools are evolving under, underneath you

and you're addressing a culture that is
evolving at the speed of the internet.

It craft isn't the settled matter
of, like, we think of craft, we think

of somebody who's like a luthier.

Like you spend your entire life
as an apprentice to make violins,

wood doesn't change, right?

violins largely don't change.

you spend your entire life working in a
stable medium and become, and what changes

is you over time we have to do both.

We have to spend our entire lives
getting better and better and better

and better at what we do, but the things
we do it with continue to change and

change really fast sometimes because the
things we are doing are changing them.

The culture we're doing it
with is rapidly evolving.

The thing that doesn't change is
Like, human nature doesn't change.

Human psychology doesn't change.

The human mind doesn't change
particularly, culture changes,

but humans are pretty stable.

We're pretty much the animals.

We've always been so our version of
craft has to be one that's got more

dynamism inherent within it than like
when we talk about the kind of more deep

artisanal, like, I'm a knife maker, or
I make violins, or something like that.

Craft is absolutely the differentiator.

Ultimately, it's not always
the differentiator in every

stage of every project.

And so I think it's also part of
discipline of design is knowing when

you are the thing that's needed.

Because not every room needs you.

Not every decision needs you, not
every team needs you . the thing

you do is unique and it probably
isn't always the differentiating

factor in every bit of everything.

And so I think we have to also be
careful to kinda keep our powder

dry and be the thing that's needed,
but not try to shove into literally

everything, every room, every
conversation, every process, every team.

' cause then we just dilute our value
in ways and dilute by our effort

in ways that's not productive.

Christian: So you, you said, be the
thing that's needed, but how does

that manifest on a daily basis?

What does that mean?

If I'm a, an individual contributor
and I sit there and I'm thinking, okay,

here's the environment I'm working in.

Here's the project I'm working on.

So very tactical, how
do I know here's this?

I really add a lot of value
where I'm really needed.

How do I interject myself in those
situations versus how do I take a step

back when it might be time to do so?

Andrea: Honestly, how many meetings,
if you work in a company and not an

agency, how many meetings are you
in where you didn't say anything?

You didn't do anything different
as a result of anything that

was said in the meeting.

You didn't make anything that was
shown in the meeting and you didn't

make anything different as a result
of what happened in the meeting that

was an hour of non-design time that
didn't get you or anyone else anywhere.

If you find yourself in spaces because
you feel like design quote needs a seat

at the table or is needing representation,
you've completely misunderstood what Value

creation is here's a good mental test.

If you were to be in charge of paying
your own salary, you are running the

business, the entire company, including
all the engineers and all the product

managers, you're paying for them on
your credit, you're the one who borrowed

all the money to run this company.

Would you pay yourself
to sit in this meeting?

Would you pay a designer
to sit in this meeting?

If you could trust that the right things
would be shared with you if necessary,

the right context would be shared if
necessary, that you are still respected.

Even if you're not in the room, would you
still pay yourself your salary to be here?

A lot of times I think we waste
our own time because we're

afraid we're not being respected.

We're afraid That if we're not
seen, we're not real All of

that is mind games we play.

It's that imposter thing we do when
really we could just be spending

that energy doing the one thing we do
that nobody else does, which is bring

ideas visually and tactically to life.

More time spent making
less time spent meeting

Christian: Oh, we should end
the podcast here on that note.

We're not gonna, but I, um, think some
of this comes down to trust as well.

If you look into it, a lot of the reasons
why we feel the need to be in all of

these meetings is because we like to
trust that product or engineering has

our backs to, and that they're there to
also represent us and therefore we feel

the need to be in the meetings just in
case we need to represent ourselves.

And I think when you do have
that trust, you're okay to say

to your pm Do you know what?

I don't need to be here.

You've got this.

Let me know if there's anything I
can help with versus, oh, yes, invite

me to that meeting too, because
I need to make sure I'm there.

Trust is a big differentiator
between the two.

Andrea: We talked about trust.

We talked a bit about courage earlier.

I think when you start, so I found I'll
start over with Shopify just a little bit.

I came to Shopify and found a huge team,
huge, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

of designers of various types, lots
of levels and layers and, and lots of

micro jobs that people were doing, but
also a lot of internalized insecurity

that their work wasn't as important
as the work of engineers or product

managers, which is very much untrue.

Shopify Deeply needs and respects and
reveres craft and design work, but the

designers didn't feel that they had this.

Okay, we're at the kids' table.

Okay?

We need a ratio to define
how many of us there are.

And what I have found is that the
courage to say, here is what I need

to know in order to do my best work.

And you, my colleagues, if you are
in the room and this comes up, I'd

like you to represent that for me.

If you are in the room and this
comes up, I need to know about it.

And I need you to tell me when
it's time for me to join the room.

And here's when I'm in my rooms.

Why don't you tell me what
you need to be a part of?

Would you like to come and be a part of my
work when I'm defining things, engineers.

Always wanna be in the
room with designers.

Engineers routinely feel like designers
are not considering the backend

and architectural implications of
the designs that we're creating.

You could have this exact same podcast
with engineers and they'd say why

aren't the designers respecting me
enough to bring me into the room

early enough in the process so that
I can weigh in with my expertise?

We can't all be in all
the rooms all at once.

It's incredibly expensive
and tiresome and toilsome.

So we have to have the courage to say
like, I'm okay not being in the room.

I'm gonna trust you that you respect
what I do to hear me when I say These

are the rooms I need to be in NY.

These is the information I need and why?

And let's check in with each
other on what we're each hearing.

And like that can only happen when
everybody's got enough self-confidence

to say like, I know my colleagues are
gonna trust me and I'm gonna trust them.

And like a lot of times, crafts
don't orient towards each other.

Like you get this thing where the
designers all talk to the designers, the

engineers all talk to the engineers and
everybody complains about everybody else.

And it's like a three-way firing
squad, Spider-Man pointing beam.

Really, it's when these pods come
together if everybody just grounds and

says like, here's the one thing I do
that none, none of you do, and here's

what you need to know about that work.

And I'm interested in how you play your
role and what that has to do with how

I play my role and let's figure out
how we're gonna do this thing together.

that often doesn't happen largely
because people are very invested in

finger pointing at each other and
saying like, the way engineering

is dominating this company.

And that's why design isn't respected.

Oh, product is dominating this company.

Nobody's dominating every, everybody
just wants to build, like get over it.

Get together, learn about each
other's craft, trust one another.

Be adults and like you don't
have to all be in every meeting.

Christian: I think designers
oftentimes are at the center of a

triad, product, engineering, whatever.

And I find that designers are often in a
good position to bring everyone together.

What sometimes when we're talking
about the work, bring everyone

together around the work.

But I have had success in the past
bringing everyone together not about

the design work, but just about ways
of working or improvements, even small

things like retros and stuff like that.

So I'm wondering, is this an opportunity
for a designer who might sit in a

team and realize now that Andrea's
talking and there's a checklist here,

and this designer realizes, oh my God,
we do not check any of these boxes.

Is this an opportunity for a designer to
take control, invite everyone at the table

have a conversation about this and sort
of drive that effort of working better

together and trusting each other more?

Is that an opportunity for us
to also stand out a little bit?

Andrea: It for sure is, and I've
seen lots of designers do this

organically because we tend to
have great skills in translation.

We know how to translate between
different people who are thinking

and approaching work differently.

And we have good facilitation
skills and tools.

It's one of our tools of our craft.

I will say large caution flag, though it
is a distraction and a very attractive

distraction to become den mother.

Operations person.

Gap, filler of product, gap
filler of like team culture.

Let's do all the emotional
labor for everybody 'cause

nobody else can talk to anybody.

And now when you ask that
designer, what did you ship?

What's in your portfolio?

What are you proud of that you've built?

You get a long story about team
culture and you don't see any work

so careful because this is not
actually what you're paid for.

It is useful to use these tools
and skills and you can use them,

but they are so potent and often
the reason, you need it at all is

it's not, you're not in a culture
that invests in this type of stuff.

And so because the culture doesn't
know how to invest in it, doesn't

know how to value it, the worst thing
is when a talented designer gets

really distracted and starts using
all of their time and tools and energy

to do something other than design.

So do this up to the point where it
unlocks you being able to do your job.

Don't turn it into your job.

It's not your job.

It's going to distract your career.

Christian: Yeah.

And at the end of the day, what you ship
is the most of the value you've added.

I think you said something interesting
there, which is do it to the point

where it unlocks you doing better work
or the squad working better together,

whatever, perhaps not beyond that,

Andrea: We Don't have
to solve every problem.

I'll just say we're, how many
designers have you spoken to that say

like, I just love solving problems.

I'm a problem solver.

Okay.

Not every problem needs to be solved,
and not every problem that you can

identify needs to be solved by you.

Even if you can solve it

. Like I think we are so emotionally
motivated so much of the time.

So many designers want to help people.

And you find yourself in a team of
people with a problem that you can

solve and you can feel the emotional
result right there in your day.

It's so attractive to spend our time
that way , and we're getting paid.

'cause it's our job too.

It just feels like it's, it,
it fills our cup in some way.

And at the same time, it is often
completely beside the point of your main

quest, the thing you're really here to do.

And so I think we have to learn how
to allow problems to be clearly there,

clearly people problems, clearly
problems we could solve with our

skills and allow them to persist and
find a way to get our job done anyway.

That's so painful.

It's so painful to let problems go
unsolved, particularly when they're

emotional problems that we like to
feel like we had a hand in touching.

Christian: I would add on top
of that, particularly when it's

something that's within your control.

Because if you look at,

Andrea: A hundred

Christian: you're in a situation,
you think, I could make this better.

Shouldn't I make it

Andrea: Right, of course.

, This is actually, I
think, a real challenge.

We have, so many designers, particularly
in very high paying roles in big companies

are working at such scale, right?

You're working at the scale of
millions and even billions of users

and viewers, but you're iterating on
a corner radius of a button for three

years to see if changing that corner
radius gets you a fractional leftover

control on like, let's say the meta
newsfeed or something like that.

Like the emotional connection that
you have to the humans on the other

side of the screen is so diluted.

In those types of roles, they're
interesting, important roles.

But like the, so many designers have this
big bleeding heart at the center that

is about wanting an emotional payback
for the work, that it becomes very

easy to get sucked into like local team
dynamics as a form of emotional payback.

And it is almost always a trap

Christian: So what you're saying, if I
hear you correctly, is that ideally you

should fulfill that emotional need with
your work with what you're hired for.

Andrea: fill it if you can't fill
it with what you're hired for.

'cause the nature of your
work is that it dilutes your.

Design impact on any
one human that's okay.

Recognize that you have that need and that
you need that to feel inspired and work in

your side projects, work in your personal
life, work in your philanthropic work.

Acknowledge if you're lacking
that in your actual day job.

Be careful not to become sucked too
deeply into team politics as a form

of replacement therapy for the user
payback that you're actually hungry for.

Christian: I wanna change
gears a little bit.

Talk about craft and leading craft
for such a big company like Shopify.

What does leading craft mean?

'cause if I would say, oh, Andreas
lead design at Shopify, I think most

people would understand what that means.

What does leading craft

mean?

Andrea: Shopify has a model
where each of the major.

Forms of work has a thing called a
craft leader, a discipline leader.

And it's generally somebody
who has a substantial subset

of employees reporting to them.

Not all of them.

But you can be, you are generally
a leader of people, but not always.

Your job is to be the company's
representative when it comes to

what does excellence look like?

What is a job description?

How do we define the various levels?

How do we calibrate excellence?

What should we pay?

Um, what tools do we use?

How do we train people?

So it is really setting up the definition,
the spec, if you will, for what design.

And its relative disciplines.

Sub-disciplines mean in the
building machine that is shopify.

So Shopify had engineering
as a discipline.

It had a discipline owner
design, as a discipline.

It was actually two
disciplines at the time.

It was UX and and creative, and
I was their discipline owner.

And that's not a model that I was
familiar with from other companies.

It was always kind of an implied
relationship between HR and whoever.

The head of design, if there was a
single head of design is, or maybe

a couple leaders would inform hr.

And so this was the first company
where that was a formal role with

a formal set of activities to
perform on behalf of the company.

And I came to Shopify because I thought
that was such a fascinating opportunity.

Like I, I was so interested in what it
would mean to get, to define what design.

Is and should be at a company
that's so high agency.

So high pace.

So differentiated Trump is quite
interesting as a company because

it's founder led and it's founder.

Toby Lutkey is very anti orthodox.

He doesn't do things because this
is how they've always been done.

He always argues his way from first
principles up to something he feels

confident in and then is always
challenging that thing because

the world and the internet and
technology are always changing anyway.

So it's like such an interesting
environment to be invited into, to

play such an interesting role at
a time that we were really kind of

reinventing what design and user
experience and product meant anyway.

I took that opportunity and you know,
had a, had the chance to survey my own.

Background, like my own
background is product design,

product and user experience.

But in this role, I had to represent
content designers and writers,

researchers, motion designers, 3D
artists, illustrators, people in marketing

and brand design, video producers,
the operational, roles that tie

themselves to design and, and creative.

I had to think through what does it mean
to create the environment in which people

who practice these crafts can succeed.

How many of them do you need?

What do you call them?

What should their titles be?

For example, should people
who create video, is that one

craft or is that 10 crafts?

Well, I challenge you to make
broadcast video with just one skillset

that's 10 skill sets, you know, so
you have all these really interesting

human systems design problems.

And at the same time, you have
all these people who are showing

up every day and doing a job.

So this is not like,
let's build a company.

Okay, let's build the spec,
then we're gonna ship it.

This company was already running,
it was full of employees,

it was full of crafters.

So it's not just shaping it, it was
shaping it while it's alive and working.

And so it was setting an I set of
ideals and principles down and then

moving over time towards those.

So every new hire you make,
every promotion decision, every

you know, calibration you do
around impact and performance.

Those over time steer you towards
the ideal shape of the discipline

and away from a less ideal shape.

But it isn't like.

You start on day one and you say, well,
this is how many employees we're gonna

hire and here's how many jobs we have
and here's exactly all the levels.

You, you're evolving a living system,
which is itself a 20-year-old company

full of humans doing jobs every day.

Christian: So when you say you come
in and you have to sort of set the

bar and set, what does excellence mean
for so many different sub-disciplines?

I just can't even wrap my mind
around where do you start with that?

Do you come up with some principles and
kind of build from those or I honestly

cannot wrap my mind around this, so
Sounds like such a monumental task.

Tell me about that.

Andrea: Yeah.

Back to do hard things.

Super monumental task, and also come
humble, walk in and don't assume that

like this isn't a place that has a bar.

first thing to know is
your own limitations.

I'm not the best designer
in this whole entire world.

I'm not even the best
designer at Shopify, right?

Like my job is to recognize
excellence, not to myself be the

most excellent of everyone So I
had to sit and think through what

is, what are the characteristics
of excellence in this environment?

those characteristics are then something
that you can objectively review and every

manager can review their employees on.

The basis of that isn't a.

About my excellence, that's
about the recognition of

excellence in this environment.

I think the next thing was finding
exemplars like the company is just

stacked to the rafters with talent.

It's about finding that talent and
saying like, this right here is the bar.

this person here, here are
the things that they're doing.

That if other people at their level
or in similar roles were to be doing,

they would be killing it even harder.

Here's how they are expressing
their mastery in ways that you

can follow and learn from, And
then I think it's like finding the

cultural or normative behaviors
that propagate the system, right?

Excellence is not a
characteristic of people alone.

It's also catalyzed in an environment.

And so, you know, you get people
who are really, really good, who are

de motivated by the people around
them or the environment around them.

They're not going to create excellence.

You get people who are capable
of something great and you show

them what it looks like when it
happens, they're gonna learn and

be like, oh, that we're doing that.

Right on.

So people have excellence within them.

Your job is to catalyze it, and also
to build a brave enough culture

to name it when it's not happening.

the, the flip side of this is there
are people who are bench warming.

There are people who are not interested
in investing in their own skills.

There are people who are brilliant jerks.

There are people who are just ladder
climbing for the sake of ladder climbing.

There's all flavors of stuff
that happens, and you have to

name that stuff and handle it.

You have to name it out loud and
say like, this isn't excellence

and it's not producing excellence
in you or the people around you.

Here's what.

We need and expect if excellence is what
we're shooting for, and not just at the

margins, but excellence across the board.

Like not on a bell curve.

Here's what you can do about it
and how long you have to do that.

And it's not very long.

And if you get up and get after
it, right on and if not, goodbye.

And so you have to do that work too
because excellence is not a thing that

you foster with a lot of permissiveness
alongside a lot of permissiveness for

waste and people who are basically
not invested enough to show up for

it and stretch drag everybody down.

Christian: You said earlier,
sometimes we look at examples

or we have looked at examples.

We found someone in the company
and we say, this is the bar.

What this person is
doing, this is the bar.

We want to replicate more of that when
you have to start doing all of this work.

Did you start from the bottom and looking
at examples of what was already there?

Or was it more of a here's the high
level, here's where we want to go.

Here are the principles that have
nothing to do with any of you.

They're just the principles that
we've decided that we wanna follow.

And then after that, we look at
people who embody those principles.

So I guess the question is, do you start
from good examples that we already have?

Let's do more of that.

Or do we set a new bar and
we find the people in the

company who already do those?

Andrea: It is a little bit of both.

I'm not sure.

I kind of felt my way
through it, to be honest.

I'm not sure.

Uh, I had a plan.

I started by talking to
as many people as I could.

I interviewed . A hundred, 150 out
of, I think it was at the time, like

six or 700 people , I talked to lots
and lots of people to figure out

like, what did it feel like to be a
designer, a crafter, a leader there?

What was on people's minds?

What were they scared about?

there were a couple of big layoffs
that happened during this time

and people were very scared.

And so there was a lot of,
I'm scared to try things.

I'm scared to say things like,
I don't wanna get in trouble.

You know?

So we had to kind of identify
where people were at.

We the same time, you just have to get
out front of it and say like, we're gonna

be more excellent and that's gonna be
scary and you're gonna need to be brave.

And here's what we're gonna celebrate
that bravery in the following ways.

And here's some of your colleagues
who are doing brave things.

I think when, I think there's
two things that helped.

One.

You celebrate, you say to people you
want them to stretch and be brave

enough to show what they're doing.

You find a person who's not in power who's
doing that, and you put them on screen in

front of the rest of the company and you
say, this right here, this intern, this

bravery, this is what we're looking for.

This right here, this person who's like
digging a little bit deeper than they're

comfortable with, they're not sure.

This is amazing.

So when people, you invite people to
be, courageous and then you reward

them when they are publicly, I
think you also have to model candor.

Like you have to model being
told something uncomfortable or

politically problematic in public
and nobody getting in trouble.

I know people like to say culture's
like a soft word and whatever.

Like we're Tech bro culture
right now is very anti softness.

I think it's a practical word because
if people afraid to share and show and

make, you're not gonna get anywhere.

If people are rewarded for
sharing and showing and making,

you are gonna get somewhere.

If people at all levels of the company
will speak up to leaders and everyone

else, you're gonna get somewhere,
you can call that culture or not.

I think that's culture and I think
that that's a culture that is about

creating a space for excellence.

'cause excellence requires
courage and courage.

It doesn't require safety,
it requires bravery.

Like safety is actually
not really a useful idea.

I think bravery is a useful idea.

Christian: The last question
I have on excellence is.

You mentioned some of these
characteristics that you set and

these are sort of the expectations
that everyone follows going forward

and slowly we're gonna move towards
more and more people being hired

and following those expectations.

Can you give us a couple of examples?

I think you've already touched upon them,
but just practical, what are some of

the expectations that you and your team
came up with that are just baseline?

You have to be this, if you want
to be successful at, at Shopify.

Andrea: These can, so these were
updated every six months or so.

So I think coming in, it was, we're
gonna shift to a high performance model.

We're gonna shift to a
high performance culture.

That means excellence is what's expected.

We're gonna expect it of you.

You're gonna expect it of yourself,
you're gonna expect it of the people

around you, and you're gonna speak up.

If you're not seeing it and you're
gonna ask for feedback from the people

around you that's gonna be given
with generosity and service of your

benefit, we're gonna move fast and
we're gonna be truthful and clear.

So none of this is gonna
get snuck up on you.

Like I'm telling you now, in six
months you're gonna be judged on this.

Here is your opportunity
to move from here to there.

You have every opportunity and
everyone's here to help you.

So it started with like, we're
setting, we're go, we're gonna

move somewhere different.

You are being given a heads up.

It's plenty heads up, and you have all
the support in the world to get there.

We're all going together.

It's gonna be fine, but
we're all gonna need to move.

So that's kind of one we just had
to sort of say, we're changing and

here's how that change is gonna move.

Here's what your support is and here's
the culture of stick up your hand

and say, I'm not sure where to start.

No problem.

Let's all get started together.

The baselines are.

Really established at each craft
level, but it all starts in, you

have to be obsessed with your tools.

You have to be a master of what you
do or like, don't do the other stuff.

Like all the T-shaped business of great
communicator, like great facilitator,

all that stuff is lovely, but it's not
useful if you're not a master of your core

tool set.

It is about your hard skills.

Can you make things that are tasteful,
things that are elegant, things that are

efficient, can you make quickly and do
you have enough discipline and mastery

over your hard skills that the soft
skills are actually complimentary or your

soft skills instead of your hard skills?

If they're instead of your
hard skills, then actually

we don't have a role for you.

And we had a lot of people that were like,
Ooh, I've been in like soft skills mode

for a long time and we're like, great,
here's your hard skills expectation.

Specifically what tools
specifically to what level?

And go ahead and start ticking those off.

And you have plenty of like
money and management time and

support to like go do that work.

It's YouTube guys.

Like, it's just not hard to pick up skill.

Like it is not hard.

We also invited managers to take six to
12 months with a bit of a, like, pass on

certain things to shift back into craft.

There were way too many
managers, way too small of teams.

So we had this situation where we had
our most junior manager managing our

most junior employee, which is just
a downward flywheel of, bad work.,

It doesn't help anyone.

We reduced drastically the number of
management roles that we were hiring for.

We asked managers to really scale
like managers to broaden and scale and

become absolutely excellent at leading.

But there were gonna be fewer
manager roles and much less

depth in the organization.

'cause we also didn't want there to be
like 20 levels between the CEO, who's

the visionary and founder of the company
and the designer on the ground, putting

that person's vision into practice.

So we flattened and widened management,
we specialized management more so

people who are really into the craft of
management could focus on that craft.

And then there are a lot of people who
are kind of in that weird muddy middle

and we were like, listen, be an incredibly
senior crafter and lead through your work.

Even maybe lead a couple people.

You're not on on the management track,
you're not gonna get paid any different.

And we saw a lot of people take
this opportunity to reskill recraft

and come back in as senior ics.

And those people are doing some of the
most interesting work at the company now.

Christian: Last thing I want to talk about
is an internal memo that has appeared on

the interwebs sometime ago, written by
the by Toby, about how using AI at Shopify

is not just the thing we do because we
are exploring it or because we wanna

see where it's, no, it is a fundamental
expectation and you have to use it on a

daily basis as core part of your toolkit.

You were talking about knowing your
tools earlier, and the assumption

is that we're not just talking about
Figma or Photoshop or whatever.

Maybe the assumption is
that AI is part of that.

So I, I like to understand now as
we're getting towards the end, what

does the expectation really mean on
a daily basis for a Shopify designer?

Andrea: Yeah, I think this memo came
out maybe four or five months ago now.

So this has been out for a while.

What I'll share is internal to Shopify.

That memo articulated something
that Toby and, uh, many other

leaders had been saying and
moving towards for the prior year.

This wasn't like the first time we'd
heard about this, Shopify exists at

the kind of edge of the internet and uh.

Very early in the
generative AI kind of wave.

We were talking about this internally.

What is this gonna mean for engineering?

What is this gonna mean for design?

What is it gonna mean for marketers?

Like, what is it gonna mean for
people who create videos, et cetera.

So this isn't, this
wasn't news internally.

I think the memo encapsulated
something that we felt frustrated.

We weren't taking seriously enough
, like we were all playing and we

were all picking up little skills
on the side, but people weren't

prioritizing reaching for the AI tools.

And when I say reaching for them, they're
literally an entire internal suite of

AI tools available to every employee.

people weren't challenging themselves
to change the way they worked.

They were picking up the tools and
playing with them and, and that was fun.

But they weren't approaching every task
with the AI tool as the starting point.

And then hiring managers weren't
challenging the need for a backfill or

that next employee from the perspective
of, have I taken a look at the way

that I work and asked myself is that.

A job now, because think about it, if
I'm just a little bit intellectually

lazy and I'm a manager that's just used
to having a team and somebody leaves

and I wanna backfill them, if I bring
that person into a job that's literally

going to be gone in 18 months because
AI is going to make it irrelevant.

I haven't served that person at all
and I haven't served the company.

I've just not done the due diligence
to think about if this is really a job

or if this is the right shape of role.

So the memo was to encapsulate that
sentiment in a really clear way.

It was bubbling for quite a long time
already, but this was a way of kind

of just putting it into one place and
saying, listen, we're serious and we're

going forward this way since that time.

There's just been this like Cambrian
explosion of design, you said.

How does this change design work?

Designers reach for, coot and cursor first
designers um, have what's called DevEd

up, meaning like they've got their GI
set up, they've got their environment set

up, they know how to publish software.

Now designers are learning low and no
code prototype execution, but they're

also learning motion fundamentals
because otherwise it's just a

point and click slideshow, right?

So they're learning motion fundamentals.

This expectation that we're gonna, we make
software, we're gonna build in software,

we're gonna use these tools to build,
is pushing everyone to like reexamine

their tools, reexamine how things like
Figma fit into that on the creative

and brand marketing side you have.

Writers creating agents to help
other people in the company create

content that feels like it works
with our tone and voice you like.

So you have writers that are
programming agents, you have video

artists who are working with, you
know, 11 labs, for example, to do

voice accurate dub translations of like
TV commercials that we've produced.

So in every corner of the
company, people are familiarizing

themselves with the state of the
art, which continues to change.

They're getting closer and closer
to the metal, meaning like they're

making things that are more plausible,
more early in their process.

And everyone's just on a learning journey.

But the part of the learning that is
this is a cute hobby on the side is over.

And the part of the learning,
which is how do we actually work

with this as a default integrated
part of our tool set has now begun

Christian: How does the team know?

Because with all of these tools popping
in, and we are very early in this, in

this industry, a lot of tools appear
two, three months later, they disappear.

When we're using these tools, how
do we know, okay, this is here to

stay we need to take this seriously,
versus this is a cute thing, but maybe

not worth spending too much time on.

Andrea: Honestly, Shopify's
done a really incredible job

curating this for its employees.

Like anyone out on the internet
is like, oh my gosh, like there's

a million new things depending on
who you follow on X or whoever.

Like every new day is a new freak out.

that was very obviously a
distraction for our employees.

They have a job to do and they have
the old tools to do them with as well.

And they're trying to navigate
like, how do I do my job?

Pick up new tools, move faster.

Like that's a lot, even if
you're completely bought in.

So Shopify everyone the service of
orchestrating and curating what are

the things we're gonna focus on?

How do we think about them?

How do we think about which of them we
should utilize and for which type of work?

And so a lot of that got done
for the employee population.

So they didn't have to be the ones like
constantly chasing every latest tool.

Also, you know, these are introductions
of technologies into your tool suite,

which can introduce risk, you know,
security risk, legal risk, et cetera.

So our CTO and our head of information
security, pressure test, that these

are things that should exist within
Shopify's, um, technical infrastructure.

these are decisions that are largely
made for the company and you really

don't have to worry about it.

I think in general, chasing
Twitter's version of here's

what's next is a distraction.

If you're lucky enough to work someplace
that's curated that down to a best

in class and you're have integrated
that into your development and design

environment for you, then really it's
just about picking up the tool and

being willing to like, be a little
uncomfortable and try something new.

Christian: Yeah, I think what
you said there is very accurate.

The more you're on Twitter, the
more you are gonna find out about

all of these different tools and
you're gonna wanna try them all.

'cause they all look great.

And I guess what I'm trying to get at is
what's a distraction and what's a tool

that you should really spend time on?

And I guess at Shopify.

Big team.

You've done that work
very well thought out.

Not everyone, so you might be the only
designer in a team, or there was just a

couple of you and all of these companies
are throwing these tools at you.

How do you differentiate between,
again, what's really worth learning

and spending the time on versus
what's just a nice gimmick?

Andrea: well, you sort of need to know
what the interesting one, I think you need

to know what the categories are, right?

So there's category,
which is generative video.

There's a category which is, your sort
of open AI chat intelligence You've got

your category, which is like, you know,
generative images and image creation.

You've got your coding assistant,
and then there's some mashups.

Honestly, there's not,
it's not that broad.

There are those things and then
there are interesting ways that those

things connect with one another.

There are some key concepts like,
CPS and, you know, you need to

understand some things about hosting
and you need to understand some

things about publishing software.

And if you haven't gotten onto GitHub
as a designer, you probably ought to

because we're now working in code.

So there's some basics here that I
think you can get oriented around

and not get caught up in the
storm of there's just a hype cycle

running against generative a ai.

Right now it's every other headline
in tech and we almost need to turn

down the volume on that and get
back to like, what's gonna help me

if I wanted to make a video asset?

What are the interesting tools out
there that I could try if I wanted

to make an image asset, what are
the interesting tools I could try?

I personally think Midjourney
has or at least for now, I think

they're the most interesting and
mature image creation platform.

we've liked CREA a lot,
we've liked 11 Labs a lot.

Obviously Open AI is whole
Backbone is really interesting.

We've got Claude and Cursor, but
then we've also got Llama and Gemini.

What's more interesting than
the tools are the tasks.

the challenge with working with AI is
you have to actually think about what

you're gonna do in a different way.

You have to shape the requirements
around your unit of work in a way

that you can express often in,
in text or speech to the system.

And if you're not used to
shaping your work in that way,

it can feel very confusing.

And the tools, what tool
do I use and who's fastest?

And what that can start to dominate you.

I'd actually go back to like a
more fundamental skillset, which

is, can I describe what it is?

I would want this colleague,
which is the tool in front of you.

'cause the tool, an AI tool can
act like a colleague to do for me.

So if this is my little design
intern or my video intern, or

my writing intern or my coding
intern, what spec would I give it?

And then what, if it gives
me back, how would I give

feedback on what it's given me?

So it's like you have to kind of
like learn how to work in dialogue

with something or someone and
shape what it is you're asking for.

It's not unlike the jamming
we were talking about earlier.

You sort of need to learn
how to work with a tool.

Instead of work through a tool.

And that's a more interesting skill than
the clout chasing of all the latest.

Like they're all basically the same
on some level, and they all require

you to think in this one way.

And it's more interesting to
focus on that than which tool.

Christian: Andrea, let's
bring this one home.

We have a, a small tradition on this
podcast where I ask everyone at the end

the same two questions and um, for this
season, the first one is, where do you

look for inspiration in your day to day?

Andrea: Hmm.

honestly, my day to day, uh, is a beach
town in California, and the things that

inspire me are the more grounded things.

My day-to-day inspiration is a
walk to the coast, is looking to

see if there's dolphins today.

It's waiting for the fog to clear and
the first raise of sunshine to break.

I'm very grounded in nature when it comes
to the things that like enrich me and

give me life and make me feel hopeful.

So that's my day to day.

Christian: I mean, nature is a
pretty good answer in, in terms

of inspiration right there.

I think there's endless
inspiration there, isn't there?

Uh.

The second question is, what is
something that you believe AI will not

be good at, and therefore designers
could or should double down on?

Andrea: Interesting.

I don't think ai.

We'll have taste.

I don't think AI will have soul and
instinct and care it's just a tool.

Like our job is to decide what should be
made and to care enough to use tools to

make those things, and then to express
craft and taste and connoisseurship in

how those things show up in the world.

I don't think AI has an opinion, like
it doesn't have skin in, in the game.

the world is where we live.

We are making the world.

And so if our job is to be stewards
of the world that we live in

and, how it is crafted so we can
live in it more beautifully and

more consciously and, and more.

Well, we are the ones who care, right?

And so if you were to get rid of all
the designers, certainly things would

get built, but they wouldn't be built
as beautifully and with as much care.

And so I think we have to believe
in ourselves enough to know

that we have a role in this.

Christian: Very beautiful ending.

Thank you for that.

. Tell us what you've got going on.

Where can people find you?

What's next for you?

Andrea: Yeah.

Well, I'm taking a leap into the
unknown a bit myself right now.

I've ended my arc at Shopify with, with.

All gratitude and love for,
for that brilliant company.

And it's a wonderful and interesting
place where I think, uh, people are gonna

continue to do really great for me.

I've actually decided it's time to
step into some personal development.

I'm gonna be working on some craft of
my own and I'm also gonna be spending

a bit of time investing in some
things that are gonna help my family.

So I'm gonna be a human in the world for
a little bit, which as a lifelong type

a workaholic is a scary, hard thing.

And so I'm doing the scary, hard
thing of not exactly knowing.

Christian: We did talk today about.

Going into the uncomfortable.

So I guess there, there
is a pattern there.

Here we are again.

Yeah, there you're leaving that
pattern, not just talking about it.

Andrea, this has been
such a great episode.

Thank you very much for being
on Design This Business.

It's been a pleasure.

Andrea: Lovely, lovely to be here.