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- 00:25 - Show intro
- 08:42 - What do all these large companies struggle with?
- 10:41 - How to build trust with your team
- 09:38 - Alex talks about his work at the top of the design organisation
- 17:30 - What to spend your first weeks on into a new job
- 19:51 - How to link our design work with the wider business metrics
- 26:45 - How to deal with features trickling from above
- 29:52 - Using data to talk frame design in the best light
- 34:48 - Why he's chosen to stay as an individual contributor
- 40:05 - Tips fo your jobs search, interviews, portoflio, etc
- 55:45 - End of show questions
Connect with Dean
This transcript is provided by an automated transcription service and might not be entirely accurate.
Christian: Welcome to Design Meets Business, a show where design leaders talk about practical ways to quantify design, about making our work more transparent, and about how designers can make a bigger impact in their organization. I’m your host, Christian Vasile, and before we begin, I’d like to thank you for tuning in today.
On the show today, I’m talking to Dean Hudson, one of the senior UX designers at Google in Sydney, Australia. Our conversation revolves around making design more transparent through relationship building and collaboration. We’re talking about hiring and how you can set your best foot forward and a little about why not moving into management is a perfectly fine decision and it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re not growing.
I hope you liked this one. Dean. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Hey, from one doesn’t know about you, but simply takes a look at your resume. They will be astonished by the products you’ve worked on over the past 15 years. So we’re talking inside organizations such as Yahoo and BVDO and Atlas, Seattle, Microsoft Instagram, and for the last three, four years at Google.
So I know you’ve got a lot to share with us on that intersection of design and business, but that is a rabbit hole. And before we willingly fall into it, tell us a bit about your story, you know, how you got here and obviously most important out of all the teams in the world. Why wouldn’t Ozzie support Tottenham, Hotspur.
Dean: Uh, Hey Christian, thanks for having me on so great to speak with you today. Um, yeah, I’ve, I’ve kind of had like a pretty varied career, both in terms of like organization size and, and the types of design, um, that I’ve been doing. So, um, like a lot of designers, you know, I, I didn’t really have like a straight line from where I am now and kind of where I started, you know, like.
Less high school. And I always knew I wanted to do something creative or you know, that artistic kind of field. So I didn’t really know what I was doing. So I kind of went to university and, um, started a finance degree and thought, you know, that might be a kind of good way to it. I don’t know, find something that piqued my interest and get into a career.
I never thought I was going to be a fine artist. I’m not particularly talented, but I just want us to do something creative. As I started doing photography as a major, um, and very quickly discovered again, like I wasn’t going to be a photographer, but, um we started playing around with digital photography, which was like a new.
Technology at the time, you know we’re still doing standard dark room self, but we also started playing around with, you know, really basic, you know, digital cameras and, um, you know, tools like Photoshop. And, and that really kind of piqued my interest. I was like, this is really cool. You know, I didn’t really know design was a career, but I thought Photoshop is amazing.
Like I was playing around, you know, taking photos and then just doing some kind of cool things in Photoshop. So I, I quit that course after a year, decided it wasn’t for me. And I wanted to kind of, um, see where this new interest in, in digital tools could take me. And, um, started first stumbled into graphic design.
I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like this is, you know, kind of photography. digital tools and kind of want us to see where that took me. So I enrolled in a course in graphic design, um, and that was like a three-year study and really great kind of founding and things like, you know, typography, color theory, uh, layouts, you know, all of that stuff.
So, um, again, it was really quite early in the kind of early two thousands. So where was sort of thing like we had, we did some multi-media type work at, um the college I was going to. The focus was more on print design. You know, I was going to go to an ad agency and, you know, I want it to become like a creative director or something like that.
Um, and so left school and went to work for a really small graphic design agency where, you know, we’re doing things like branding and magazines and book layouts and things like that really traditional graphic design. Um, but we also started to have clients that wanted to do a bit of a, you know, they wanted a website as well as having like a brochure or something.
And, um, that was something I was like gravitated towards as well. I was like, oh, there was no one else on the team that was able to do it. And I was like, yeah, I can figure this out. So, you know, I started picking up Dreamweaver and and building really terrible websites in tables, um, at a bit of flight.
And yeah, it really kind of had an interest there. And as I started to do more and more of that type of work and then, uh, decided to kind of as a lot of Australians to pack up my things and move to London for a few years. Um, so did that, and just did a lot of like contracting over there, working for places like transport for London and Reuters, and then kind of like a bit of a hybrid mix of like traditional graphics and starting to do a little bit more, um, digital work.
Uh, but I kind of, it was also like the iPhone was really kind of starting to get popular and that time as well. And I started to get really interested in, you know, the different apps and screen designs that were happening on those types of devices. So I was like, yeah, this is kind of where I want my career to go.
I want to start doing more work like this. So I kind of took a bit of time and, you know, polished up my kind of, uh, you know, HTML kind of coding skills and kind of rebranded myself as like a web designer and managed to get a job working for a, uh, kind of like an online poker company over there and was doing a lot of, you know, just like small web design projects for them, but then also kind of doing some really, um, basic UI work as well, you know, kind of designing the, um, the interfaces for some of their, uh, poker playing, uh, application.
And then moved back to Sydney, um, in Australia and, again had rebranded myself as like a web designer, got into bigger agencies working as like a digital designer and building out, um, experiences for their clients. But, you know, pretty quickly got burned out by the whole pitching and, and just like, you know, sprinting executing, and then kind of onto the next one.
Not really a lot of time to be thoughtful and iterative. So, um, started looking around it, like what other kind of opportunities were out there and really. Stumbled into UX by accident. I saw like a role posted at, um, Yahoo in Sydney asking for like UX designers and, um, I’ve had, I went through the job spoke and I was like, oh yeah, I kind of do some of this stuff.
Or like, I kind of see, like I could do that. And, um, moved into a rollout into a small startup that they had acquired as their only UX designer. Started working with, um, embedded within like a product team for the first time. Um, BR super naive didn’t really know what, like a product manager was.
I didn’t know, like what agile was, all of this kind of stuff. So had to learn a lot of things on the fly. Um, but it was a really great environment to, to do that, and really just learn the basics of. Um, shortly after that, I was approached just out of the blue, by a recruiter from Microsoft over in Seattle.
And they were building out the design team on being the second, most popular search engine in the world. Um, and, uh, I ended up flying out there to meet the team and kind of took a chance on them. And they took a chance on me and, um, you know Seattle, uh, to, to join the team there. And that was like a really great introduction to how larger organizations do UX.
And we did some really interesting work over there on a windows phone, which is sadly now no longer a thing, but it was, um, a really interesting platform to design for. Um, got a lot more experience working in mobile. moved back to Australia, started working out last year and again, like a really big, enterprise, uh, company.
I’m sure you’re familiar with a little bit tools like JIRA and confluence. Um, and that was a really great design education as well. So, you know, really learning about design systems and, building these like really powerful tools for, for different types of, um, um, user. And I was there for a few years and started, you know, leading a design.
I came over there and, and kind of let you know, we’re working on a couple of different products, but. I kind of wanted to get back into the consumer side of things. Um, and I got a email again, kind of sent me out of the blue from a recruiter at Facebook. And then again going through a really big growth period.
And, uh, we’re looking at building out their design team across a range of different products. So, um, again, ended up just saying yes to, to a new opportunity and moved over to the bay area. And I actually started working at Instagram, which is obviously part of the Facebook family. And that was just like an amazing job at an amazing time.
You know, it was probably at the, I don’t know, there’s so many interesting things going on. That was right in the middle of the rebrands. It was when stories first came. No, it was just like Instagram. It was just like win after win after win, they just kind of couldn’t do any wrong. And it was just such an amazing talented team there and such a great environment to be a designer.
So learned so much amazing stuff there, which I then kind of brought back to, to Australia and started working at Google for the last four years on Google maps across a couple of different products first on Google automotive. So building up the maps experience in like next generation electric cars and then transitioned over to the user generated content team where we, you know, design experiences for people to, uh, contribute back to the map and make sure everything’s fresh and up to date.
Christian: Yeah. It sounds like a journey, a long journey. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of organizations. Very diverse, very different across different countries, across different cultures as well, where, you know, people work differently. So I’m wondering any patterns there that you’ve noticed over time as to what some common challenges are between all of these companies, what are they all struggling with?
Dean: Yeah, I don’t know if there’s like one thing that they all struggle with. I think every company kind of has their own take on the, the, you know, the product design, um, journey and how things work. I think that they will have different users, they all have different products will have different goals so that there are a lot of unique challenges, I guess, that all of them, um, Some of them have more mature design practices where, you know, design is very much at the forefront of, of everybody in the company.
And it’s something that, um, you know, even down to every engineer, has like lot of, uh, care and dedication to the craft and the details. Um, so yeah, I’m not sure if there’s one thing that they all struggle with. I think there’s unique challenges at all of them. Um, but I think overall it’s, uh, I’ve kind of been able to see design become just more and more relevant in any integrated to the businesses as I’ve gone along in my career.
Christian: So what are some of these challenges? what can someone expect if they join one of these larger companies to, to work.
Dean: Yeah, there’s, there’s a lot, I think these larger companies obviously have like large user bases. They have large products, they have lots of different features. So I think maybe one of the challenges is that right.
Just kind of finding your place within that larger product and being able to create impact as a designer. Right. So I think when you first join you’re not going to be given a really large kind of portfolio or kind of like hero piece to work on. Right. You have to start from the bottom and just established you have your place in the team build trust and then kind of work up to some of those larger, problems and opportunities.
Christian: I’ll pick up on something you said there because. When you draw it, you said when he joined one of these larger companies, you’re not necessarily going to be given the cash cow in the first project, you might have to prove yourself first.
And you said trust there, and I should trust plays a really important part of this you have to build trust with your immediate product team, but also with the wider organization and say, Hey, look, the work I’m doing is, is of really high quality. Therefore I can maybe advance a little bit.
So how do you build that trust? Because there are different ways of doing it. And I would assume every designer has their own style. Some people do it truly just to their work. Some people are more relationship building types. Some people are a hybrid. Where do you lie in, how have you built trust with the teams who’ve been working on?
Dean: I think, um, one of the. How did it just the way as I’ve worked through throughout my career is just like always having this really open and collaborative approach to, to design. So, you know, not just kind of going away into like a, um, you know, like a closed office and kind of, you know, working on the designs and then just revealing what you think is the solution to the problem.
I think it’s always just been about sharing your work early and often and bringing people along with that on the journey with you, and also just like not being precious about your own ideas and, and where the best solutions can come from. inviting other people into the decision-making process collaborating with them early sketching ideas up, um, taking other people’s ideas and, building on them or visualizing other ideas that people have as well.
Right. A lot of times the best ideas come from other places like outside of design, right. There’s people that are like closer to the problem where they can kind of see it from a more unique angle. But one of our superpowers as designers is being able to like visualize those ideas and turn them into something tangible.
So, you know, there’d be times where I’ll be having like a conversation with an engineer and, you know, they kind of tell me about, oh, like, you know, I have this idea for this or that. And I can kind of take that away, mock it up, make it look like something real and then kind of show it back to them and we can share it back with the team.
Um, and you know, being really generous with attribution and engineer who’s contributed, not just kind of like, you know, this is something that I’ve done. It’s, it’s, it’s like a team thing. Um, and I think that really goes a long way to building trust.
Christian: Yeah, for sure. You look, what you’re saying it has been talked about for a long time to try to involve the rest of the product team. We’ve also had someone on the podcast a couple of episodes ago, talking about how she involved the entire product team into testing, super hot them to testing, kind of like kicking and screaming in the beginning until they understood just how valuable it can be.
And then as soon as that happened, the whole product team became more of an advocate for design as well because they saw how important it is. So just a design they say is a team sport. And I find that people who. Come in with this idea of I’m going to come in and change everything because I’m really skilled.
and I know what I’m doing are very unlikely to be successful in, in, in most organizations, because it’s just not going to work. You’ve got to build what you’ve got to build with the people around you. So I find collaboration to be very important. I also know that there are a lot of designers for whom it doesn’t necessarily come very natural, right?
Because we are problem solvers. We w we’re the problem comes to us. Someone says, Hey, we need to redesign this because something’s not working. And then our first instinct is to go into a corner and just work on the problem. But how do you get out of that mentality? maybe take a step back first and involve other people, practical ways of how you’ve done that.
Anything you can share with us then.
Dean: Yeah, no, I think it’s a, it’s a great point. You know, I think it can be scary to design out of the open like that. Right. It’s that you’ve got to be quite vulnerable about your process and about ideas that maybe aren’t fully baked or aren’t good ideas, right.
Especially early on there’s there’s so many things that you don’t know and it’s just like, you kind of have to play around and, and see what sticks think. I mean, that’s something that just comes in time a little bit, as well as you get a little bit more, uh, experience maybe. And, and, um, you, you, you know, that, you know, like you’re not expected to kind of knock it out of the park on the first go, right?
It’s like, that’s not really what the job is about. It’s, it’s an iterative process. So, you know, just being aware of that and being able to open your workup and invite other people into, to look into collaborate. I think that’s something that comes over time. I think also as well, like we were just talking before about building trust and how you can kind of get to that kind of relationship with engineers.
It’s, it’s not always just about bringing the product same into the design activity. So, you know, like getting people involved in sprints and all of that kind of stuff, it’s also about how can you fold yourself into some of the rituals and processes that maybe happen on the other side as well?
So I remember like early in my career as well, that was our engineering team would help this ritual of like Friday demos, but that would we’d go around and be, look at every engineer’s desk and kind of see what they’d been working on that week. And, you know, they’d get like a little, uh, a golf class over and be like, okay, that’s great.
It was, it was purely just like an engineering activity. Um, but myself and one of the other designers on the team were like, Hey, like we should start taking part in this as well. So, you know, we started, doing design demos on a Friday as well. So as we kind of like go through the engineers, we’d be like, oh, cool.
Like here’s some design work that we’ve been doing, here’s some, some new icons that we kind of want to add to the set, uh, or, you know, here’s like some new ideas for a flow we’ve been working on. And so just being able to kind of inject design back into these other, rituals and processes, similarly, like with, um, things like hackathons as well, the, that generally, you know, very much like engineers coming up with, ideas and making them a reality in a few days.
Like, um, I think just kind of getting involved with those things either jumping on a team with some engineers and, helping them build out their, ideas or just coming up with your own stuff and trying to find allies and partners that you can kind of drag in as well as.
Yeah, it starts to build up those relationships, uh, shows them, what design can add to that process. Uh, not just you trying to pull them into your process and make your job easier.
Christian: Yeah. You said something key there about seeing how you can fit into their process. And I think whenever designers joined companies, most of the time, they’re more so focused on what’s important to them and what they need to get their best job done, or yeah, the highest quality of output.
But it’s also the other side of the coin, which is how can I, as a designer to help you as an engineer or a PM or a tester or whatever it is, how can I help you reach your goals and how can I help you become more productive? And I think that having those conversations, whenever you join a company, the super open and vulnerable conversations about how do you see my role as a designer fit into the organization is just as important as figuring out.
Who who’s going to help you around them, who are going to be your allies and building those relationships. I find that to be so important in the first 2, 3, 4, 6 weeks of you joining a new company, or so depending on how big it is, it might not take six weeks. But, so, so let’s talk about that.
What have you generally been doing whenever you join one of these companies? What have you been mostly spending your time on in the beginning? The first couple of weeks?
Dean: Yeah, I think, you know, at the beginning, it’s just, you really kind of have to slow things down a little bit on your own pilot. I think there’s, there’s often like a desire to join a company and you, you, you feel that you need to show impact immediately.
You, you kind of got all these great ideas. You want to impress people. You want to hit the ground running but it’s really hard to do that. There’s so much knowledge on the team that, you know, you haven’t been part of there’s problems. There’s so many things that you just, you’re not aware of.
Right? So you, you kind of come in with these really maybe naive solutions and they won’t work for whatever reason. Um, and then that can be quite frustrating and maybe just, Yeah. Maybe lead to some erosion of that trust as well. So I think really just kind of coming in and just seeing how the team is working, seeing, like, just trying to understand like what the different, problems are, who their users are, like, just really paying attention to things like design critiques, and, you know, learning from your peers and trying to say, okay, well, how are they approaching this?
Um, what are the things that are important? Um, you know, how do they communicate their ideas are really just kind of slowing things down and, and kind of thinking about how you can adapt your own process and ways of doing things to the way the company works. So I think, design, there are kind of fundamentals, I guess, that you can kind of take with you and translate to, to any problem or team, but there’s also a lot of just unique things, that happened on different teams as well.
You know, like Google there’s different tools and processes for how we, you know, share and talk about. Essentially the content might be, that might be similar to how we did things in Instagram, but the format and the style and the way we kind of present things are very different.
So just kind of slowing down and just taking notes of, of how people document share critique work and try to, um, fit into that system without trying to change things to radically off of.
Christian: So that’s more of a short-term solution, right? The first couple of weeks, you know, you, you take a step back, you get to know the team, you get to know the processes, you learn as much as you can, from whoever you can about the pronoun that you are going to work on.
When we talk about long-term, when we talk about six plus months, 12 plus months, that I find that one of the better ways, and you will be expected after that timeframe, you will be expected to deliver and show some impact. And I argue that there’s no better way to show impact than moving the needle, whatever the needle means for the specific company you’re working.
So we love to talk about metrics and how design can affect the metrics here and more so how we can talk about how we affect the metrics, right. And how we can, we make design more transparent. So when it comes to. To design, effecting these metrics. I find that when you work on specific projects that have clear cut metrics, say an e-commerce website or anything that has to do with conversion, or maybe you work in the growth team of your company, then obviously conversion or retention, whatever the metric is, there is a metric linked to the sort of project you’re going to work on.
So it’s much easier to show the impact of that. However, sometimes there is no metric attached per se, sometimes a fee feature trickles from the top or a new product features trickles from the top. Someone says, Hey, I think we should do these based on a loose idea that I’ve got from a friend or whatever.
How do you, in that case get to track the impact of design? Because an example that I could think of that maybe is relevant to you is you you’ve worked at Google maps for, for EVs and you have really long release cycles. So it must be harder to track the impact of the work there. So in that case,
Dean: Yeah, it’s a good question. I think just kind of going back to your original points around like metrics and, and like how do we shift the needle? I think it’s really important on any project is just to really understand what are the goals? What’s the objective? What are we actually trying to do here?
I think metrics are a great way of measuring that and being able to show impact, but it’s kind of in service of what’s what are we trying to do here? There’s what’s the ultimate objective. Um, and I think every design really kind of needs to think about that from the start. Right? So whenever we start a project, we get really clear on, okay, well, what’s the problem.
What’s the opportunity here? What’s the actual objective? What do we think we can do here? And then what metrics do we think are going to our support, our theory, right? the typical kind of like design hypothesis, right? If we do this for these users, we expect to see, uh, this result, um, we’ll know, this is true when we see metrics X, Y, and Z, uh, change in, in whatever way.
So. Joel, unlike growth teams and things like that, maybe your kind of your work is more tailored around like moving specific metrics. But I think, um, in a more sustainable way, I think metrics really should just be there in support of the objectives and the goals of the team or the feature. And a lot of the companies I’ve worked at over the last couple of years the they’re really mission-based right.
So the, the company itself might have like a, an overarching mission. And then H uh, sub-team, uh, we’ll have submissions which are in support of that mission. And then all the objectives and the goals of the team driving towards a role kind of laddering up to the submission that the team has. So there’s always a really clear thread around, okay.
Like, why are we doing this? How is this helping our team get to that submission goal? And how is that submission goal helping the, the company over overall reach it’s overarching mission. and so I think. That’s a really great system for making sure that the teams are always pulling in the same direction and that we’re not just chasing after some of these metrics, just to, you know, just, just to always be kind of going after growth, uh, because sometimes the we’ll have kind of conflicting metrics as well, right?
I mean, you might see, like a growth metric go up, but it’s really going to negatively affect, uh, another metric that the team cares about. And so in those cases if you have like an overall , goal or objective, you can kind of balance those things up against, and you’re like, okay, well, which metric is actually helping us get closer to our overall objective, right?
And you can start to make decisions and trade-offs then otherwise you just get to a point where it’s like, oh, we want this metric to go up, but this other metric is important to this other team. And it’s like, well, how do you kind of compromise? And how do you find out which thing wins in the end? So I found that framework has always been a really great way of, keeping the team focused on which metrics are important and what they should go after.
Regarding your second point yet just around products I’ve worked on, like on automotive, where the shipping frameworks or a really large they can be years long. It is tricky. Uh, it’s hard to, to measure some of those things because we’re not going to release for a couple of years, and it’s going to take some time to kind of get, um, metrics back to understand how it’s going to be used.
Uh, but again, like having really clear objectives about what is this product trying to do? What are these features trying to do? How does it all kind of fit together into one cohesive experience? Like we want to create this experience for drivers. Uh, so all these features together should create, a unified experience and solution that we all can get behind.
Christian: To your point earlier about which metrics are important. And if we affect one, we also affect the other one, potentially some I’ve read about, and we’re using it uptime as all this whole concept of north star. What is the truly one metric that we care about? So whenever we run tests, sometimes we look at the numbers and we say, not really short, this has really moved the needle that much in terms of the metric that we were actually trying to move.
However, if it, in any way effected the north star, that is what matters is that, the, whether it’s negative or positive, that is what’s going to make the decision. So yeah, you can have multiple metrics that you’re trying to effect, but at the end of the day, the kind of decision-maker is having affected the north star that the main metric that we’re trying to do.
So that’s, uh, that’s important, uh, to have, I think I’ve also worked in the past in places, as you were mentioning, I was, was kind of smiling. Cause I remembered a few stories about that exactly happening, where you affect the metric positively and then a lot of one, unfortunately, negatively, and then there’s a debate of, should we release this or should we.
Cancel it then, you know, those debates, all these, they’re not, they’re not very fun. Um,
Dean: and I think on that point as well, you know, you kind of sometimes get, um, okay. Swear, you know, maybe all the metrics are, are heading in a positive direction, but when you look at. Holistically, maybe the actual experience and the design itself.
Maybe there’s, some issues that are going on there. So it’s sometimes I think, um, you can’t always just look at the metrics, right? You kind of have to look at things a little bit more holistically and just think about the experience as a whole it’s not all about optimizing these metrics and, and trying to tweak this and tweak that.
And then the, the overall experience suffers. So I think having good design leadership, who’s able to look at those things from a higher vantage point in that ensure that we’re we’re creating. The right type of product as well. I think it’s really important.
Christian: Yeah. It’s going to be really hard for a individual contributor on the ground to, to debate and to say to win a debate as to what’s more important increasing the conversion rate by 0.5% or users having a better time, like people at the top really scared about the number. And they might not even know about the fact that making that small change that increases the conversion rate actually decreases the quality of the product and the way people think about the product.
So having really good design leadership at the top to frame design in the right way and to take those battles, I find that to be very important and I find that to be an enabler for people on the ground. So to speak, uh, to do their, their job. I also another thing that I to. I talk about is when someone from the top says, Hey, let’s do this feature because I think it’s going to work.
I find it to be the responsibility of all the responsibility of the whole product team, but the responsibility of designers to say, why, what are we trying to achieve with this? Hey, let’s add this new feature. Okay. But what, what do you think, what needle do you think this is going to move? Or what, what impact do you think this is going to have on X or Y or is it, and sometimes when you ask those questions back, it’s going to make the people coming up with the feature rethink and sometimes even say, yeah, you’re right.
It, this, there’s not really a point to this rather than wasting the product team’s time for two months. So she per feature that will not really make any sort of impact. So asking questions back, I find that to be a really powerful tool, asking the right questions, really powerful tool to make sure that whatever the product team is working on is a.
Valuable for the end product. And that probably is a shared responsibility with the PMs and generally with the product team, wider product team, but some teams don’t have a product manager. So then I find that responsibility of the designer to ask those questions. But what’d you think about that?
Dean: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s why we use things like a Google, we have a framework, um, okay. Ours, you know, objectives and key results. And I think something like that just, it really helps the, the team stay focused on building the right things and making sure that the right priority goes, I mean, there could be some really great ideas that maybe someone has, um, but they just don’t fit into the strategy for the year or for the future.
So it’s like, well, that’s great, but it’s not really something that, uh, we want to prioritize right now. Like what we’re really interested in is these three or four objectives, right. That’s, what’s really important to the team and for the company over the next six or 12 months. Um, so anything outside of that we can park, but we’re not going to get to it.
, you know, so we have objectives, which obviously like that these are the kinds of the big themes that the team wants to go after. And then they’re broken down by the key results, which are, what are the smaller, more actionable things that we can measure that makes sure that we’re kind of heading towards those objectives.
So, yeah, I think it’s a really powerful tool, not just for PMs, but for designers as well, just to make sure we’re always working on the right thing. And again, like they can change as well. It’s not like, yeah, you kind of set your plan for 12, 18 months in the future. You kind of have to plan to the best of your ability, but then you kind of make course corrections every six months or something like that to make sure like, yes.
Are they still the objectives that the team is going after or has something changed in the product or in the world that’s making us rethink what these objectives are. And then now we can, we can reprioritize, prioritize things. Um, no that happened pretty recently on the user-generated content team that I’m working on.
We had a roadmap, we had a plan, all these things we thought were going to do, and then, you know, COVID came up and it, very quickly, uh, throw a huge spanner in the works and, and different things became very immediate priority. So we had to be able to, to park out older objectives and then just re-prioritize and, and pivot the whole team to solving a whole new set of problems that were really important and relevant during the worst time of the pandemic
Christian: to your point earlier about.
Transparency in design transparency in organizations. So you have, your team has reached these KPIs, which just goals has done a couple of tests over the course of 1, 2, 3, 4 months has reached a specific goal. How do you then take that knowledge of, Hey, here’s what we’ve done and share that with the rest of the organization.
How do we talk about design with the wider organization to frame it as the really powerful business function that it is?
Dean: Like we do a lot of that. We talk amongst the UX teams around. Okay. Like, you know, these are the different projects we’ve been working on. This is the impact we’ve been having these, the, the challenges and the problems that we’re looking at this year.
Uh, but I think when we kind of talk about problems and solutions out there, kind of, um, broader cross-functional team level, It’s usually like a more complete story, right? Where we talk about design and product management and engineering, it’s kind of like a, a holistic approach to something it’s very rarely like this is what designers come up with.
Look at the impact design has made and look at like how fantastic designers. It’s more like, um, this has been the process. These are all the kind of the problems, the opportunities. This is what research has contributed. This is , the different explorations design came up with is that the engineering experiments, this is the kind of the result that we’ve been able to achieve.
So I think being able to wave that design story into the rest of the product, uh, experience is super important just to show that it’s not this kind of standalone thing that delivers its own set of results. It’s like contributes to the overall success of the team.
Christian: I think that’s even more important to do in less mature designed, organized.
Or less design mature organizations because Google is very mature. If Facebook is very mature in, in terms of that even at last year. And I know it is so, but, but I assume when you joined our organization, you were maybe the first designer or first couple, you have to do a lot of that groundwork yourself.
There’s no design leadership in place per se. There’s no design culture there. Oftentimes design is not even brought in until the last moment to kind of Polish, whatever has been done by the engineering team. So to get from that to a design driven or product driven culture, where design is brought in much earlier and has much bigger impact for first of all, that takes a lot of time.
But second of all, it also takes a lot of. and if it comes down to transparency and talking about design and the impact we’re having as designers, until people at that level start to understand, oh, okay. Now I get a design. It’s not just a function of making our product looks, look better, but it’s a function of moving all these metrics and it can really help the business grow more so than, um, than we
Yeah. And I think, you know, from that kind of perspective, I think it’s just all about starting small, right. Demonstrating impact and value at a, at a really small scale. , like I mentioned before, you know, like jumping out on a hackathon or working with an engineer on, on a feature that they’re doing and just kind of showing them how you can make their job easier, how you can make the product better.
Uh, and then being able to kind of tell that more complete story where it’s like, Hey, look, you know, like we worked on this together and look how great this has been. Look at the results that we’ve been getting here. Um, and then kind of. Building that trust getting the ball rolling, getting people kind of to, to understand through, you know, small wins across the board that like, oh, like design can add this value.
I didn’t know that they could get involved at this point. I, you know, like kind of educating them about some, how you can add value to the process and where you should be engaged and how you can work together to really build better products unless about kind of coming in, I guess, and demanding that state of the table right from the beginning.
Right. And, you know, we want to set the product vision and the strategy. It’s like, well, you kind of have to own that. Right. It’s um, it’s hard for them to just give you the case, the cost Lumbee like, yep. Go ahead and define out our vision for the next five years, without having established that trust and getting that respect on the team
Christian: and that takes time.
It’s not something you going to do straight away. And I think it’s. Point that maybe getting ignored or not discussed enough when designers are working for some of these smaller companies and they’re asking, well, why am I not really allowed to make this impact that I want to make? Why am I not brought in early?
What all these questions? Well, of course you’re not, you’re a new function in this company. You’ve got to prove that, that your skillset, um, as a person, but also what you can do as a, you know, as, as a design function. Deserves that seat at the table. It’s not something that’s just being given for free.
So I find those points to be really important. It’s something you’ve got to work on over time. And I think that if you’re not willing to put in that groundwork, then you maybe shouldn’t go and take a role as the first designer in a company or have, because that might not be for you. You might work better in a company where design is already established and you can just come in and deliver and you can come in.
And you, you already, that framework has been set and you, you are allowed to just do the work that you want to do. So off the back of that, off the back of talking where people fit best and what type of role you’ve been around for a very long time. And my assumption is that at this point you could easily choose to go and manage a team.
Maybe even be your head of design somewhere. You’ve chosen to stay more or less as an individual contributor, obviously with a few other responsibilities on the side, but 20 years in, and you’re still pushing pixels. And some people choose at that point to go into management, manage people. How have you made that decision of staying as an individual contributor and aren’t you tempted to make that lateral move into managing.
Dean: Yeah. It’s um, it’s a good question. That’s something I’ve had to think about over the years, right? I think like, especially as some of these bigger tech companies, they have these parallel tracks, right? Once you get to a certain level, the job ladder branches, and you can go down the management track or you can go down the IC or individual contributor track, and it’s definitely something I’ve, I’ve consciously made that decision about wanting to stay on that IC track because I, I really just love the craft of design and I love being involved in the execution and working with other designers and, and creating amazing products.
That’s something I really, really enjoy. and I think as well, Design leadership and design management are two different things. I think it’s one thing to, to manage the team and be responsible for, you know, the whole people side of things. I mean, it’s not something I will never do. It’s just something I’m not doing right now.
Uh, I see my role now on, on the team or it’s like design leadership, right. I, I kind of really helped to kind of shape the strategy and, and, think about craft and, and make sure that there’s like standards and, help mentor other designers on the team. So I think even though, yeah, I’m still kind of on the tools most days.
Um, it’s not what my job is only about it’s also about kind of just helping other designers get to that next level and ensuring that they’re really consistent and high quality experience on the team. Um, at some point that might change, you know, um, I think. I think that definitely more leadership opportunities starts to open up once you get to that.
Um, if you cross over to the management side, but at the moment, I’m just really, I’m really enjoying my role too much to kind of really think about making that switch. I think it’s maybe something that will come in time, but for now I’m quite enjoying myself.
Christian: Yeah. And I think it’s so important. What to just sit there.
You are really enjoying, still doing the work of a contributor and I’ve read just, I think a couple of days ago, it’s funny, we’re talking about this now I’ve read some tweet that said that moving into management. So you’re a senior designer and then you move into a management is not a promotion. It’s a lateral move.
And I think for many years we thought of it as, oh, now I move into management. Therefore it’s a promotion. And I guess in some other industries, it is, but in design, it’s not because if, if what you’re really good at. Doing design gets taken away from you for other responsibilities, managing people, you know, maybe a bit of design ops, whatever it may be in the company.
It, it surely is a lateral move. It’s not a promotion and it’s a whole set of skills that is required for that. And that I think it was a Twitter thread actually. And further down the thread, someone said the way you’d know whether you want to move into management or not, is to think about it like this.
If you enjoy pushing pixels all day and being in Figma all day, you should stay as an individual contributor. If you enjoy sitting in meetings all day, you should move into management. And I know it’s a bit fuzzy and it’s not really that clear cut, but that’s kind of the idea. Isn’t it. As soon as you move into management, you’re going to let go of some of the design work, if not most of the design work, and you’re going to think more of helping to grow and then a bit more management type
Yeah, for sure. And, um, I think, companies like Google, you know, there’s a really clearly defined, uh, job ladder as well. Right? So as you kind of move up the levels, whether it’s the management track or the IC track, you, you can kind of understand, okay, well what’s expected of me at this level and what are the things that I need to start doing?
And as you move even higher up the IC track, it becomes less about just this small individual piece of the product that you’re working on. And it’s more about the horizontal impact you can have as a, as an IC, right. So how can you connect the dots with, different projects that are happening across the organization?
How can you facilitate collaboration between the different teams? How can you scale the impact of your own work beyond just the feature or the scope that you sit within? Making those relationships, um, being able to see those connections and, and helping the team to, to really just expand beyond their current scope, is starting to become more important.
Christian: And that’s where parallel. Become really handy. They’re quite a recent thing where when you’re a senior designer, the only way to go in some companies, it is to actually go into management and let go. Of some of that individual contributor work well, some companies having that parallel track where you can still grow, but not necessarily go into management.
So whether you become a leader or a principal or whatever the track is called, but I find that to be a really good evolution of the design ladder, if you will. So talking about design letters and teams and building teams and all of that, I know you’ve done a lot of hiring at all of these companies, a lot of interviews.
And I’d like to talk about that a little, because it is still, it’s something, we talk about a lot in the industry, but it’s something people still struggle with. whether that’s portfolios, whether that’s, how to put your best foot forward interviews, whether that’s , what questions do you need to ask in an interview?
All of that. So I think we should tackle the bit of a bit, the topic of hiring. So let’s start pretty simple. Let’s start with portfolios because everyone loves that and they can be some very practical tips from here. So what stands out for you when you look at a portfolio?
Dean: Yeah, I think, um, it’s interesting. Cause I think again, you have to kind of go back to goals and objectives, right? So like what is a portfolio for, and I think a lot of designers of fall into a trap where they think that the portfolio basically has to do too much, right. It has to kind of tell the story of who they are as a designer and what their journey has been.
And then we have to have these huge thousand words, case studies in there with the whole design process outlined. It’s kind of too much, I think for, for what the portfolio is for that, the portfolio is really a tool to help you get to that next step, which is that the interview. Um, so I think.
Being clear around slack, you know? Okay. Like, what is this for? This is for a hiring manager or for a recruiter, someone that has that they have a lot of different portfolios to review there’s that, um, they, they don’t have time to read this huge case studies right now. There’s not the, um, it’s not really what it’s for.
Like, you want to kind of show just enough that people are interested in the work that you’ve done and they can kind of say, okay, I want to learn more. Right. And then when you go into the presentation round, that’s what you have the opportunity to go really into the details. Talk about your process, talk about all the different iterations and the things that you tried.
Um, and maybe not trying to document that on a website and expect people to rate four or five case studies to get you in the door to talk about the same stuff again. Um, yeah, I see that.
Christian: I think there’s also a pressure that comes from the industry that says you have to show the process of your work.
So then, then you sit there and you think, well, that means that I have to show the whole process. And, um, as you say, that might not necessarily be, I’ve already said the job of a portfolio is to get you the interview now to get you the job, you get the job at the interview. So you’ve got to think of that in you.
You also made another good point there, which is you have to think of who is the audience for this portfolio? Well, it’s someone who has maybe 15, 20 seconds for each portfolio. That’s it? They, they, unless you catch their attention, they’re not going to spend any more than that. So you’ve got to think, well, how can I catch a hiring manager’s attention in 15 to 20 seconds?
And the way I like to recommend if possible, also depends on the work you’re doing, obviously, but I like to start portfolio study cases with achievements. I have. Move this needle in the company, I’ve saved this company X amount of money over for, with this little project, I’ve increased the speed of whatever it is, right.
If, if there is a metric there linked to your project, start with that, because then I, as a hiring manager, might look at that. Oh that’s actually the type of work we need done here. Let’s see. And then you’ve you’ve caught me. That was the hook you’ve caught me now. I need to know, I want to read a bit more and that will peak my interest.
Any additives for that.
Dean: Yeah. And I think that’s spot on, I think, you know, it’s outcomes, it’s really what matters, right? Like that’s what the design process is for. It’s not about generating a bunch of sticky notes and sketches and all that kind of stuff. They’re just, tools that get you towards those outcomes.
So. I think that is something you see a lot as well, people to spend so much time and energy on the case studies outlining at this really linear process where, they created personas and then they created a user journey and they did this and they did like a workshop and that’s all.
Um, but it’s kind of almost table stakes at this point. It’s like, yeah. We kind of expect that you have a design process. we don’t need to go into the granular detail of that. Maybe at this point, maybe that’s something you can go into in, in the interview, but in the portfolio. Yeah. Like, just talk about the things that are really important.
Like what are the outcomes that you drove with this design? Um, what are some of the, um, different explorations that you took to get there? What are some key insights that maybe came out of user research study, which helped inform your final design, things like that? you don’t have to tell the whole story on the website.
It’s more just like, okay, how can you kind of grab my attention? Maybe it was something like metrics or outcomes. how can you kind of highlight the work that you did? Clearly showing that the visuals and the actual final designs, and then once you get to that next stage, that’s where you can break the story down a little bit and get more into those states.
Christian: So, okay. You’ve done that. You get to an interview now and the interview is structured like this. First of all, you’ve got some time to talk about your work a bit more in detail. So let’s talk about how you can put your best foot forward there. And the second part of the interview is you might have to do a white boarding challenge or some sort of challenge together with the team that you’re going to work on some, how are you going to put your best foot forward there?
So let’s talk about the first one. How do you talk about your work you have 30 minutes or whatever it is you have?
Dean: Yeah, I think, um again, it’s like, think about the context that you’re going to be in. You’ve got to be presenting to probably a group of people. You’re either going to be sharing your screen over like a video chat or you’re going to be there in person.
Um, so make sure you have the right tools for that job, right? So like create a presentation, uh, that is going to be formatted for that, that writes, um, context. I see a lot of designers that, have their website, which they have, shared with the recruiter to get to the interview.
And then at the interview, they might just open up that same website and just kind of like go scrolling through the same portfolio, the same case studies again. Um, you got to think about the context and the medium that you’re in. Right? So, um, really clean, simple slides, you know, with, with large images, not full of texts, it’s a presentation, you’re there to add that context.
You don’t need to kind of have every piece of information on the screen. we want to hear from you, right? We want to like, hear how you can talk about your work, what your communication skills are like how you describe the different decisions that you’ve made. So I think making sure you have that story and that narrative of, of the, the case study down really taught before you get there.
It really helps. So, I mean, it’s not to say that you have to have a script that you read from, but I think. Before you put the case studies together. Think about the story that you’re trying to tell. What was the problem? How did you know that was a problem? what were the next steps that you took to try and solve that and then, you know, making sure you also really highlight the finished work as well.
Again, I think there’s, there’s too much focus on process. I see in a lot of presentations, which is interesting, but I think, again it’s the outcomes that really matter. It’s like, what did you actually build? What did you ship? What were the, did you meet your goals? how did you meet them? And some of the other stuff is not as, as interesting, I think. but there seems to be a lot more emphasis placed on that.
Christian: All right. So that’s the presentation part? How about the white boarding challenge or whatever challenge it may be working together with the team?
Dean: Yeah it’s a tricky one. I think this is one that you see a lot of people, um, struggle with. I think it’s, again, it’s.
The nerves and the anxiety of having to like design in public. Right. I think, you know, people, um, seem to stress out about that quite a bit. And I mean, it is daunting, you know, you kind of come into a company with, you know, maybe you’re really excited about joining and you struggle with thoughts of like, am I good enough?
Or I really don’t want to mess this up. So it’s a really stressful situation to be in. And I think it just needs to kind of make sure that you can just try and calm yourself down a little bit first and just really think about, the problem that the interviewer is asking you to solve.
Right. So it’s not supposed to be like a, a trick where it’s like, oh, let’s see how ma how hard we can make this foyer. And we want you to fail and then struggle. It’s really just to get an idea about like, how do you break a problem down? How do you approach it? It’s not about the final solution, right?
It’s not about like, oh, did you solve this problem in 30 minutes? It’s more about how did you. Uh, approach the problem. what were the questions that you asked, how quickly did you get to a solution and then just kind of like laser focus on that. Did you go really broad and you explored a bunch of different ideas at the beginning, collaboration as well.
Like, did you just basically put your blinkers on and just, uh, attack the problem yourself? Or are you trying to involve the other person in the room with you as well? Whether that’s by asking the questions or, inviting that, their feedback along the way it’s supposed to be like a collaborative exercise.
It’s not just like a, a critique of your final
Christian: solution. And you said something there that I want to highlight, you said, or, or I’m going to build upon. It is nobody in these challenges is there. Nobody wants to see you fail. These challenges are there to see you succeed. These people want to see us succeed so they can hire you so you can come and do some great work.
So it’s not the. That nobody’s trying to trick you into any, if they are, I don’t know. I probably shouldn’t say what I want to say, but technically nobody or ideally, nobody’s trying to trick you into failing. They just want to see how you would approach a problem provided you were joined the company.
Dean: And, and it’s usually only just like one dimension of that interview as well. Right. There’s obviously the presentation there might be some other one-on-one interviews as well where the whiteboard exercises is just one dimension. So yeah, maybe you do really poorly on that, but you absolutely knock it out of the park on the other ones.
And then it’s just like a conversation at the end to think about, okay, well, like maybe this person just had a bad day or maybe, something happens here, but you know, they were actually really strong in this other area or maybe the team is looking for someone, you know, like maybe the, the, um, the skills that you demonstrated in the white boarding exercise.
Aren’t really what they’re looking for. Maybe they’re looking for someone that’s really strong in visual design or, the execution side of things. So that’s okay. Maybe they can. Uh, overlook that and it’s, so it’s not like if you fail that one round that’s it for you. I think it’s just about just keeping calm and trying to, do the best you can
Christian: interviewing is a two way street though.
So, okay. That’s that’s on one side, that’s on the side of the company. How about on the side of you as someone who tries to get hired, what are the questions you are asking? What are the things you’re looking for to make sure this is the type of company you actually want to work for?
Dean: Yeah, I think really just trying to identify areas that you interested in.
I think my whole career it’s always been about following my own interests, whether that’s, you know, like to wanting to work in mobile, wanting to work in consumer products, things like that. So, uh, whenever I’ve kind of made moves, I guess in the past, it’s always been kind of like looking at, you know, the company and trying to determine like, is this the kind of work that I want to be doing?
Does this align with my interests? And it doesn’t have to be like the particular, um, uh, sphere itself. it doesn’t have to be like, oh, I really want to work on a, um, Uh, like a football, apple something, right. Because I’m interested in football, it’s more just around like, um, is the kind of work that I’ll be doing at this company, the kind of work that I’d want to build my career on.
Because the work that you do is the kind of more of the kind of work that you’re going to get in the future. So being really thoughtful about, um, that, that type of work that you’ll be doing, I think is important. And also just thinking about the, the people as well, because I mean, that’s going to be a really cool part of, of what your experience is going to be like.
So if you can do any kind of research around volt who are the other people on this team, whether that’s on LinkedIn, just trying to have a bit of a poke around and see like, well, what other designers are on the team?, who else, from product management or whatever else, like just trying to get a bit of an understanding about like who the people that you’ll be working with are, and if they’re the type of people that you’d be excited to come to work every day and build things to.
Christian: One of the questions that I like to ask is how will I be measured in the first 90 days, 180 days, six months while while I get measured on. And that can tell you a lot about what you’re going to come into and heartbeat also how mature the organization is. Because if someone says, well, in the first month, we expect you to deliver this and deliver that, that back to the conversation that we had earlier, it might not be a, you might not have time to do all of that relationship building and stepping back and taking it slowly.
So you, and that’s fine for some people, but maybe some people prefer to do it. So I think asking questions is also important when you are getting interviewed, because it can give you more details about the role you’re actually going to come in.
Dean: Yeah. And not even just in the interview, it’s like also after you’ve been hired, right?
Like when you, when you first joined the company, having that conversation with your manager around what a success look like for this role, like, what are your expectations three in the first, 20, 40, 60 days, things like that, right. Just so you know, do I have, that time to, to be able to kind of sit back and really understand, or am I expected to kind of hit the ground running and start shipping things right away.
Christian: One question that I wanted to ask one, the topic of portfolios, which I know we’ve passed by already, but I’m going to take it back a little. Sometimes I say, don’t show necessarily your best work show, the work you want to do more of because when someone, I mean, obviously there has to be a balance there and everything.
There’s some nuance to everything. The idea is the more work show that you want to do more of the more likely you are to get more work like that, because someone’s going to look at your portfolio. And as I said earlier, we’ll say, oh, Dean has done, five projects similar to the tackling similar challenges that we’re struggling with at the moment, rather than this person has done five projects in all in different areas.
And we can’t really put a finger on where he is really shining. What’d you think about that?
Dean: Yeah, no, I agree. I think, uh, it’s probably harder at the beginning of your career where you don’t have like a broad range of case studies or projects that you can draw upon. Um, I know, like when I first started riding, it was like, I was working in print design, so it was very hard to then create a portfolio of, of web design projects to get that first web design role.
So it is definitely a challenge. I think, as you kind of get further along in your career, you can , maybe cherry pick or you can like tailor your case studies to, to that, that new role that there’s, um, maybe different aspects you can kind of pull out and really highlight to be kind of, even though like the projects might be totally different, you can be like, oh, well, you know, I, I did this task or we have this challenge, which is analogous to what’s happening over here.
Um, so it definitely gets easier as you, as you build up that Corpus of work, but earlier on it, it can be a challenge. So I think that’s why, you see people doing a lot of just self-initiated projects or they have like a side project, which is more tailored to their passions or around the type of work that they want to do.
And I think that’s, that’s always great to see as well. you don’t want to just show that. I think it’s, you know, if you’ve got a port and let’s just straight out of school and you don’t have, um, any kind of real. you really want to have a mix of like, okay, like this is work that I’ve done, which can demonstrate, you know, my skill as a designer I was working within these constraints.
We have this real world income art outcomes, but maybe this is also what I’m capable as well capable of as well. it’s good to have a balance.
Christian: So talk about people at the beginning of their careers. What has someone that you’ve had in an interview impressed you with, other than their work, right in the beginning, the work will necessarily be, what’s gonna impress you more.
It might be some soft skills. It might be anything on that side. So any experience there with, with what what’s really impressed you with someone who’s starting up?
Dean: Yeah. I think just being able to address. Talk about their work in a really complete way. I think you see with a lot of more junior designers they focus more on the execution and the craft and it’s I did this thing.
Um, but being able to kind of like zoom out a little bit and, and talk again about why was this important to the company? what was the problem that you were trying to solve? Um, what impact did you have maybe beyond just the scope of the project? Right. It was like, this feature, but I also had to work within the broader design system or we created these new components, which we then used in this other part of the the product.
So being able to really look at your work from, a more zoomed out perspective, and think about all the different things that it’s impacted beyond just the pixels,
Christian: then we’re at the one hour mark, so we’ll go straight to the and the podcast questions first one is what is one soft skill that you wish more designers would possess?
Dean: Um, yeah, I think just kind of back to what we were just talking about around slight communication and being able to talk about their designs both in, verbal communication and written communication. I think you see a lot of designers, they might be really great like talking about their work to other designers, right.
They might be in a design critique and they can talk about the decisions they’ve made and, you know, they don’t have to really talk too much about the business context or anything like that. It’s more just around like, oh, let’s like talk about the pixels. But then they might really struggle when they have to then try and present that work to a leadership team or to another business function that isn’t design.
And so they maybe try and talk about it in the same way, but it’s just not really resonating or, it’s kind of missing the point. So being able to reframe Your communication to that specific audience and with the outcome that you have in mind, like, are you trying to convince people that this is the right solution and they should kind of Greenlight it for engineering to build?
Or are you, sharing it with other designers to debate whether you should go with this direction or that direction being able to be effective in those different situations, I think is super important.
Christian: And what’s one piece of advice that has changed your career for the better?
Dean: Um, yeah, that’s a tricky one. I was thinking about this earlier and I don’t know if there’s like one piece of advice around weight. That’s really stuck with me and I’m like, yep. I’ve, I’ve learned a lot from that. Uh, throughout my career, there’s just been different people. and styles of working.
I think that I’ve, I’ve always just tried to, to, to learn from, whether that’s someone that, you know, is really great at giving a presentation or something. Right. So thinking about what made it great, like how can I break that down and, and learn from them. Maybe I can talk to them before I give my next presentation, and run through what I put together and get their advice.
Um, or maybe there’s some of that’s really great on the execution side of things. Like how can I break down into like the different decisions that they’ve made and really learn from them? yeah, it’s less about advice and more just kind of just really having a curiosity and like a growth mindset in, in any role that you’re in and trying to learn from all the people around you, I think is, has really served me well.
Christian: Awesome. Then where can people find out more about you get in touch with you? Any of that?
Dean: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at Dean Hudson. I’ve pretty much done that same username on all the different socials. Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, probably the best place to reach out to me.
Christian: We’ll make it easy for people to find you. Thank you very much for being part of the design, this business journey. It’s been a really awesome conversation at the time has just flown by. And, uh, I, I hope people have learned something from this. So thanks a lot for being
Dean: part of this. No, thanks for having me.
You can our show up today. Thanks Christian. Cheers.
Christian: That’s so wrapped for today. I hope you found this episode useful and that you’ve learned something that you’re ready to implement the work tomorrow. If you’ve enjoyed this as always, it would mean the world to me. If you’d share it with your community, if you’d leave a review. And of course, if you’d remember to tune in for the next one, peace.